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8 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

I have a completely serious question based on that comment.  Are some people so hung up on winning a trophy that you won't even show up to a race and support the series if you don't think you have a chance of winning?

 

And my personal opinion on tires, which means less than jack sh!t, is that they are less of an issue than it's being made out to be.  If GBU and others want to run super sticky steam rollers that have to be replaced multiple times a race for a couple second advantage, then let them.  Even if you banned certain tires and widths, they can just take the widebody kit off and load it down with aero upgrades - and probably go even faster.  I still contend the screwed up VPI is the source of all this.

 

Out of curiosity, how did their Camaro ever do?  I've never heard much about it other than it was kind of cheaty and pretty fast.  You'd think if it was just special rulings, tires, and cubic dollars that make his cars fast, then that thing should have been a beast as well.

The camaro ran a 2:42 at Road America. That might be the track record at RA for Champ(non EC) not sure. 

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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing an

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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49 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

OK then Rich. What is your take and your opinion on what should be done? You certainly did not like any of the suggestions given so what? 

 

Or do nothing at all and all is good? Your idea of limiting hp and hurting a 1/3 of the field did not fly so what should we do now? Just let them win every race? That will keep one team and loose teams that who wants to do that. I will personally look the the schedule of when they run and not enter those races. I have already talked to teams that are not going to go the Road America Championship based on if GBU show up.

 

You basically shot down every idea here and did not come up with any sort of solution.


Also... I think I did offer a suggestion.  Percentage of tire size over stock.  I don't know how much I like that idea, but its out there.

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Ok, so... I like a 10% over stock idea.  I think that means MR2s can run a 215 up front and a 225 in the rear.  Maybe that's why Troy ignored my suggestion, because he figured out that reigning in everyone else might affect him.

Edit:  I spelled "affect" as "effect" and some grammar nazi caught it.

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12 minutes ago, riche30 said:

Ok, so... I like a 10% over stock idea.  I think that means MR2s can run a 215 up front and a 225 in the rear.  Maybe that's why Troy ignored my suggestion, because he figured out that reigning in everyone else might affect him.

Edit:  I spelled "affect" as "effect" and some grammar nazi caught it.

Ooof, couldn’t even run 205 on an e30. Something like this might cut the tire life for @Huggy in half?? I assume he gets long life because 245 doesn’t overheat when a 195 would?

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4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Ooof, couldn’t even run 205 on an e30. Something like this might cut the tire life for @Huggy in half?? I assume he gets long life because 245 doesn’t overheat when a 195 would?


Like I said.. I'm not sure even I like my idea.  But people, we have to look at the big picture and think about how our rules affect all teams, not just GBU.  

Also, your math is off.  195 x 1.1 = is 214.5, or a 215.

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4 hours ago, LuckyKid said:



I don't think GBU is good for CCES, and I think that same argument can be made for PartsBadger, as well as not being in the spirit of the series.  The goal is be the easiest and least expensive route for people to start road racing and we increase the budgets and raise the stress level for everyone on track.  

One of the reasons we decided to share everything was to add value back into the series and help other teams and in particular help the miata teams.  Teams like GBU and all the value the COULD offer being silent is a jerk move in my opinion.  They know how to run fast american iron they should be openly sharing setup data, information on how to keep it reliable, etc.

What makes you so special & entitled to think that another team is not good for this series and should not participate?   That attitude is good for business.

 

Did you ever talk to the principles of this team ?  

 

ChampCar  IS the easiest & least expensive path to endurance road racing hands down. 

 

Spend as much or as little as you want in this sport, always was like that, always will be.

 

As far as "stress level"   Seriously ?  Over what ?   There is some  other activities that can ease that pain for you. 

 

If you would like to bone up on American iron for road & endurance racing  GM has offered many publications with very detailed  information   & part numbers  for years.  

 

I think it's great that you post about your build  (complement), perhaps others just don't have the time that you obviously do or it's just not their thing.   But to call someone a jerk because they don't,  grow up.

Don't be so full of hate you may learn something from them. 

 

So much more I could say but I'll refrain.

 

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39 minutes ago, riche30 said:

Ok, so... I like a 10% over stock idea.  I think that means MR2s can run a 215 up front and a 225 in the rear.  Maybe that's why Troy ignored my suggestion, because he figured out that reigning in everyone else might affect him.

Edit:  I spelled "affect" as "effect" and some grammar nazi caught it.

It's "reining in", as you would with a horse... 😉

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1 hour ago, riche30 said:


Also... I think I did offer a suggestion.  Percentage of tire size over stock.  I don't know how much I like that idea, but its out there.

 

That would potentially put older cars at a disadvantage depending on how you limited it.  rim size?  Diameter? Width?  The 95 Cobra can easily stuff it's 285/35's under the stock fenders and probably came with 245's on the rear in the first place (I will be corrected if they were not 245's but it doesn't really matter).  Not much of a change.  Compare that with some of the 66 Mustangs out  in the series that came on either 14" or 15" steel rims running tires between 185/75-14 and 205/65-15.  A percentage won't work across the board.

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1 hour ago, riche30 said:


Like I said.. I'm not sure even I like my idea.  But people, we have to look at the big picture and think about how our rules affect all teams, not just GBU.  

Also, your math is off.  195 x 1.1 = is 214.5, or a 215.

My google search said 185 was the stock width. 

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21 minutes ago, enginerd said:

My google search said 185 was the stock width. 


Already you're not following the rules as suggested!   I said per the tirerack site.  As an old E30 guy though, I've never known an E30 to come on 185 width tires.  195 was the stock size I always have had on all my cars.

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43 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

 

That would potentially put older cars at a disadvantage depending on how you limited it.  rim size?  Diameter? Width?  The 95 Cobra can easily stuff it's 285/35's under the stock fenders and probably came with 245's on the rear in the first place (I will be corrected if they were not 245's but it doesn't really matter).  Not much of a change.  Compare that with some of the 66 Mustangs out  in the series that came on either 14" or 15" steel rims running tires between 185/75-14 and 205/65-15.  A percentage won't work across the board.


Reasons why I said I wasn't sure I liked my own idea.

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5 hours ago, riche30 said:

And the suggestion we self police is also crazy.

We are supposed to do this for every other aspect of our competitors cars.   

 

We (the series) can limit the number of tires used if we want to.   There are ways.  

 

The more I read the more I like the idea of limiting the number of tires used for a weekend.  It would not be that hard to mark them and check them.       We have been to a lot of races and worked a fair number of them.  Have not seen any team come in for a 4 tire change because they flat spotted all four.    

 

 

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9 hours ago, morganf said:

5.8. Jacking of the car using any method is strictly prohibited in the hot pits. Any work that requires the car to be “in the air” must be completed in paddock.

 

8 hours ago, riche30 said:

So.. I only read about 3 pages of this thread before giving up.  A couple of notes:

Never has the BoD considered TireRack's involvement in our series when deciding tire rules.  As a matter of fact, we probably should be thinking about that if we have to revise our rules.  Thanks for reminding us.  

A single limit max size doesn't really work for me.  Rules must scale across all models and if you put a tire size limit (say a 305 width) then you are penalizing cars that start with larger tires more so than those on the smaller side of things.  If you're going to limit tire sizes I'd be more apt to support something based off a percentage over stock size.  20% over stock as listed at TireRack.com maybe?

Treadwear numbers are BS.  We all know that, but that's about the only metric readily available.

Eliminating specific tires brands/styles?  That works great today.  But what happens when Falken comes out with their new super fast Tunaslapper tires next year?  Also, who's going to provide the metrics on each and every tire available?

Limit the number of tires available in the hot pits?  Half the teams up and down pitroad keep 4 tires in the pits just to strap down their e-z ups.  Now you're telling me I have to carry spare tires AND weights in my trailer?  Do you know how many tire trailers Doc is going to blow if he adds more weight to his load?

Limit the number of tires you can run during a race / penalize a team that changes X number of tires during a race?  OK, so I'm barreling into a corner and get spun by Troy.  Troy's caused me to flatspot 4 tires because I locked the car down trying not to hit the wall.  Not my fault, but I'm taking the penalty?  Or what if Troy spins in front of me and I lock it down so I don't t-bone him in the door?  You're going to penalize me for that too?  (By the way, I just like picking on Troy)

Limiting the number of tires changed during a pit stop?  Who's going to police this, seriously.  Most of our workers on pit road are volunteers who don't understand our rules to the full extent most of our racers do.  They're job is to make sure pit road is safe, not to affect the competition itself.  Letting a volunteer call a penalty on pit road is something even I wouldn't do, and I sit on the BoD.  That's race controls job and they can't monitor every pit stop for tire changes.  And the suggestion we self police is also crazy.  Troy wrecked me out last race and I have an axe to grind.  I'm definitely going to call up to race control and tell them I saw Troy change two tires last pit stop when in fact Troy changed one tire and rotated a second to another corner.  Who's going to stop me?  Who's watching to see if its Troy or I telling the truth?

Any comments on this relatively simple to enforce rule that another series "successfully" implements?

If you have an incident you can still change tires but its gonna cost you minutes to drive through the paddock. Only have to enforce paddock speeds.

Otherwise you are mostly forced to choose tires that last the whole race.

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3 hours ago, morganf said:

 

Any comments on this relatively simple to enforce rule that another series "successfully" implements?

If you have an incident you can still change tires but its gonna cost you minutes to drive through the paddock. Only have to enforce paddock speeds.

Otherwise you are mostly forced to choose tires that last the whole race.

 

Two comments:

 

Firstly, this tempts teams to skirt the rules by doing fuel stops in the paddock, not on pit road.  If you don't think teams don't put fuel in their cars now when they go to the paddock you aren't watching closely enough, not you're giving them extra reasons to do so.

Secondly, as you said you might cost that team a minute or two (or less.. because if i'm planning to go to the paddock to change tires you better bet its going to be done as close to the hot pits as possible).   So what's that equate to on the track?  One lap, two laps?  That doesn't seem like a large enough deterrent to stop a team from changing tires to me.  

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@riche30  haha@ the 10% rule...

 

245 rs4 = $120/tire for 40 hrs of life so $3/hr

 

205 re71 = $130/tire for 8 hrs life (being generous) so $16.25/hr

 

thats a 5x increase in cost, not considering having to buy and bring more wheels/tires as spares than I do now.

 

 

i really don’t get why this can’t be solved administratively, I wish someone would ‘splain me.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, riche30 said:

 

Two comments:

 

Firstly, this tempts teams to skirt the rules by doing fuel stops in the paddock, not on pit road.  If you don't think teams don't put fuel in their cars now when they go to the paddock you aren't watching closely enough, not you're giving them extra reasons to do so.

Secondly, as you said you might cost that team a minute or two (or less.. because if i'm planning to go to the paddock to change tires you better bet its going to be done as close to the hot pits as possible).   So what's that equate to on the track?  One lap, two laps?  That doesn't seem like a large enough deterrent to stop a team from changing tires to me.  

Sure I know teams that have fueled in the paddock no kidding here, I am not sure why this has come up in the tire chat . Rule enforcement seems to be needed all areas.

I mean to say a few minutes on top of the actual tire change time, but you're saying if the deterrent isn't large enough don't bother any at all?

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17 hours ago, riche30 said:

Ok, so... I like a 10% over stock idea.  I think that means MR2s can run a 215 up front and a 225 in the rear.  Maybe that's why Troy ignored my suggestion, because he figured out that reigning in everyone else might affect him.

Edit:  I spelled "affect" as "effect" and some grammar nazi caught it.

Your suggestion is fine. I have run 235 wide tires for a while in the past. I went to 255 tires and was the same speed, I just went from one race on a set of 235 to 2-3 races on a set of 255. It saved me a ton of money to go wider tires.  It would effect me, but only in cost and cost me much more money to run races. Then take into effect that I might have to run re71r to keep up and then my cost just through the roof and my weekend cost of racing went from $1300-1500 per person for two stints to $2000-2500 per person for two stints. In that cost case my drivers would not race as the cost is to high. In that case I do not race anymore, simple as that as I do not see enough drivers out there willing to spend $2000-2500 per race.  In the best case scenario I might get one race a year, but certainly not the 6-8 I have been doing. How many teams go from a high number or races down to a few or none and the series is gone since it does not have enough revenue to support the costs? Rich, as a board member you need to think long term about the series and effects on teams showing up and being happy at the races to continue to show up. I expect your perspective to be on the big picture and long term successful viability of the series.

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17 hours ago, karman1970 said:

 

I have a completely serious question based on that comment.  Are some people so hung up on winning a trophy that you won't even show up to a race and support the series if you don't think you have a chance of winning?

 

And my personal opinion on tires, which means less than jack sh!t, is that they are less of an issue than it's being made out to be.  If GBU and others want to run super sticky steam rollers that have to be replaced multiple times a race for a couple second advantage, then let them.  Even if you banned certain tires and widths, they can just take the widebody kit off and load it down with aero upgrades - and probably go even faster.  I still contend the screwed up VPI is the source of all this.

 

Out of curiosity, how did their Camaro ever do?  I've never heard much about it other than it was kind of cheaty and pretty fast.  You'd think if it was just special rulings, tires, and cubic dollars that make his cars fast, then that thing should have been a beast as well.

I would not show up to race for second or a hope for a GBU to fail, as they have now shown they have a very low likelihood of failing. The trophy is nice, but I do not care about the trophy. Heck I give them away to the driver or crew member of my team that stood out, helped the most, did an amazing stink, etc. I do not bring trophies home, but I come to race. In coming to race I come to compete with the chance of winning. If that chance is not there I do not want to go. I know I will not win most of the time, but I want a chance to win and a hope to win. This is why I put forth the classing based on points as everyone is then racing someone and has that chance. I know that this will sound arrogant and egotistical, but I built my car to compete at the top level of teams and want to race at that level. That is me after 10 years of racing wanting to race the best Champcar teams at the top level. I see half the field as possible overall winners now as the teams have the speed, worked on their cars to the top level and have taken the time to develop the drivers. I do not think anyone who has the hopes of winning want to just say I have zero chance of winning and be happy about it.

 

I would think if you asked most of the teams if they come to race and hope to win they would say yes. If you asked those same teams if they would be happy with 2nd place behind GBU at every race they would not be happy at all. Now, if they do not change anything on their car, got the laps they should and make up all those laps with amazing driver and pit strategies and beat us then I will shake their hand, congratulate them on a job well done and be happy with 2nd as we had a great battle. The battle is what I want and strive for.

 

If nothing changes I will be emailing the GBU team and asking them for their 2021 schedule of races they are going to. I will then make my schedule based on races they are not going to. On the east coast we have a lot of races to choose from and can work around the issue. We might do less races though as we want to do certain tracks that we like so if they go we might not and might not fill it with another track. Example. We planned on going to Road America in April for the championship. We are assuming that GBU will be going to RA as they have before and it is the national championship.  After seeing GBU and their speed we are not going and changed it to do NCM instead. We are assuming they will go to RA and not NCM, but before I finalize it I will email them and get their schedule. I would PM them, but I do not think they are on the forum as I have not seen any of the post.

 

I think tires are a huge issue of speed and cost. The issue I think is that we have taken so long to really address it that it has now crept up on us that so many teams are using those fast tires it will be extremely hard to real it in and get a consensus as teams will loose speed.

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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing and have the chance to come out on top from time to time by giving your best effort and having it pay off?  There are HPDE events every weekend somewhere if all you want to do is drive your car at speed.  But if you want to do it in a race, that's good too.  It just isn't the view of many of us that show up to hope to have a chance to win on an equal basis.  

 

The rules are intended to offer up cars that can compete similarly and with effort on prep, strategy, and driving you can be rewarded by coming out on top.  It's not perfect, there are many challenges that have been brought up here to offer up that have some cars/teams at a perceived disadvantage (cue the fuel discussion).  The series routinely makes tweaks to account for this.  Sometimes they make the wrong move.  But sometimes they get it right. 

 

At Indy, there was a point in the race that 10 cars were all running similar pace at the front.  All were different makes, classes, weights, speeds, power.  But it was close racing.  There was one car that was well prepped, driven well, and and running a very good race.  It just happened to be an outlier to the others.  There is nothing against that team, I personally am glad they were there.  But it is obvious they are an outlier more than just their ability to prep, scheme, and drive better than the other cars.  The outlier result is what needs to be tweaked in my opinion, which is nothing but one opinion around here and isn't worth anything more than that.  It's not sour grapes to want the outlier brought closer back to the rest of the fast field, it's just a view of making the racing closer than it was there with that one outlier. 

 

The Riley car probably beats all of the rest of us just based on their experience at doing this on a professional level.  But the rest of us aren't chopped liver either, there isn't a reason they should be 10 laps better.  That's what is being talked about here.

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Because we have had to change a tire only twice in 6+ years in this series (1 puncture at AMP and one showing wire during the 38 hour race at PBIR), I never imagined this was an issue. We rarely ever have more than 2 spares and they are there to hold the tent down in the pits. I do laugh when I see the Tuttle crew wheeling that giant tire rack down pit road!! Wonder if they glue the lug nuts on??

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