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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing an

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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57 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

2 tires free, also, for those that want to get the last lap out of old rubber, they have to let you know in advance?

That will be a total disaster. We changed multiple tires on the 626 this weekend. We changed two today alone during the race. I get it, you want to use up tires to save money. We do it too. But these proposals with buy two get one free, two free tires, who's-watching?, these-tires-are-"free"-because I scrubbed them, etc. are going to create a lot of chaos on pit lane. Who defines "old rubber"? Can I call it "old" if we scrubbed them for a few laps during testing? 

I think if any changes to tire allocations are made they need to be very simple. "X" number of tires available for a race that's "X" hours long excluding replacing damaged tires (which is confirmed at pit-in). And I'm not even sure I agree with this. Because tracks like COTA and PBIR are VERY hard on tires (as we learned this weekend and in June). 

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How about tire size based off weight. Weight to be determined by the OEM weight. Say  up to 2500lbs 205, 2750 225, 3000 245, 3250 265 with a max of 285? Spitballing here. 

 

 

Id be ok with saying 8 tires per weekend. Come up with a way to mark them though...that’d be the crappy part. Maybe serial numbers you have to hand in @ tech? Do tires have serials?

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10 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

2 tires free, also, for those that want to get the last lap out of old rubber, they have to let you know in advance?

 

10 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

2 tires free, also, for those that want to get the last lap out of old rubber, they have to let you know in advance?

2 Tires free is what a lot of teams do now. That means an RE71R tire that wears the rears in 4 hours and fronts in 7-8 hours and a team will blow through 6 tires a day and 12 tires a weekend. I think that is what we might look at avoiding to keep costs down.

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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

That will be a total disaster. We changed multiple tires on the 626 this weekend. We changed two today alone during the race. I get it, you want to use up tires to save money. We do it too. But these proposals with buy two get one free, two free tires, who's-watching?, these-tires-are-"free"-because I scrubbed them, etc. are going to create a lot of chaos on pit lane. Who defines "old rubber"? Can I call it "old" if we scrubbed them for a few laps during testing? 

I think if any changes to tire allocations are made they need to be very simple. "X" number of tires available for a race that's "X" hours long excluding replacing damaged tires (which is confirmed at pit-in). And I'm not even sure I agree with this. Because tracks like COTA and PBIR are VERY hard on tires (as we learned this weekend and in June). 

For known tire eating tracks things could be relaxed, heck, even those with means did not dare re71r @ PBIR
 

Old rubber would be deemed as old if used more then half? We really don't need a measuring stick to make something sensical happen, this could easily self police with everyone pitted next to each other, sure there will be some bad calls but it is worth looking into.

 

Disclaimer: I bought/brought our first pair(2) re71r to PBIR and used them in the rain saturday, we would like to apologize to anyone that we may have sacred with our incredible push.

 

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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

That will be a total disaster. We changed multiple tires on the 626 this weekend. We changed two today alone during the race. I get it, you want to use up tires to save money. We do it too. But these proposals with buy two get one free, two free tires, who's-watching?, these-tires-are-"free"-because I scrubbed them, etc. are going to create a lot of chaos on pit lane. Who defines "old rubber"? Can I call it "old" if we scrubbed them for a few laps during testing? 

I think if any changes to tire allocations are made they need to be very simple. "X" number of tires available for a race that's "X" hours long excluding replacing damaged tires (which is confirmed at pit-in). And I'm not even sure I agree with this. Because tracks like COTA and PBIR are VERY hard on tires (as we learned this weekend and in June). 

 

It has to be as simple as possible, some of the ideas being posted here are dramatically/unnecessarily over complicated.

 

1) The baseline rule is that you get (n) tires for a given event (start off with three sets)

 

2) In scenarios where the track is hard on tires you can do a venue specific adjustment to the above (n), i.e. +1 set for COTA, etc.

 

3) Figure out some kind of marking/impound process for tires. There's all kinds of cheap tech (RFID for example with which you can mark wheel sets).

 

4) Make penalty for violation of this rule draconian, as in prolonged DSQ from series participation for all parties involved with the violating team: drivers, crew, owners. everyone gets bounced for some number of years.

 

That's it. No more, no less.

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I don't think the series should be in the business of specifying tires. who's going to do the work of staying on top of testing and eval as new tire models come out, etc. you want the teams to make those decisions within the context of rule compliance. The structure i threw out above will absolutely force the retirement of the sticky tires because you won't be able to successfully complete an event by using them.

 

Also, let's take this specific situation (GBU). If that team can only bring 3 sets of tires to an event, do you think they will show up with super soft tires? of course they won't, they'd have to find a tire that is hard enough where they can make it through the weekend. which means a de-facto slower tire, which means you solve the lap time discrepancy, and by extension the closure speed rate concerns, etc, etc.

 

you can find rules that are elegantly simple to solve your problem, just gotta have the KISS directive squarely in mind, otherwise you end up with all kinds of challenges enforcing them and serving way to many masters: see the BCCR.

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4 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

KISS directive

A banishment of a particular tire or 3 is as simple as it gets, the tire world changes all the time, so can the list of unapproved tires.

 

Champ car does not have to measure anything, the members do all the time, when the next tread wear lie tire comes out it will be easy to spot.

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1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said:

A banishment of a particular tire or 3 is as simple as it gets, the tire world changes all the time, so can the list of unapproved tires.

maybe?

 

64k dollar question is who does the test to determine if TW value is accurate, etc. I'm under the impression the series doesn't have the resources to do that work. Just don't see how you ban a tire without proper validation that the TW value is b.s..

 

how would that list get validated/built?

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Just now, atxe30 said:

maybe?

 

64k dollar question is who does the test to determine if TW value is accurate, etc. I'm under the impression the series doesn't have the resources to do that work. Just don't see how you ban a tire without proper validation that the TW value is b.s..

 

how would that list get validated/built?

The struggle isn't all that hard, racers have identified a several second lap time advantage that rewards ANY car that can afford a 5x tire budget increase. All one needs to do is be awake to see it.

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3 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

sure. but that's an after the fact observation, and by then its too late.

 

you don't want a reactive rule, you want a preventative rule. (imho)

Then do both, restrict # of tires a car can have (difficult) and or banish certain tires found to be yards above the spirit of a budget sensitive series

 

There is no way to prevent some things.

 

My argument stems from the fact that some will forgo a race to spend that $$ on a set of tires to reduce lap times @ another.

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1 hour ago, atxe30 said:

maybe?

 

64k dollar question is who does the test to determine if TW value is accurate, etc. I'm under the impression the series doesn't have the resources to do that work. Just don't see how you ban a tire without proper validation that the TW value is b.s..

 

how would that list get validated/built?

I know there are several teams that test multiple tires back to back to check speed and wear.  This information is not too terribly hard to get.

 

The simplest answer is to make a rule that directly impacts what you want to do.  If we don't want teams to use the "super 200" tires, ban those tires.  Easy to enforce.  

 

The list is pretty much complete and new tires only come out at the rate of like 1 or 2 new tires a year.  Pretty easy to evaluate just those new tires.

 

As far as being reactive, I would argue that either a team knows they wear fast (already have data), or will be left short handed during the race.  Either way, we will either have data or that team won't be effective. 

 

Edit to add...  I would bet money that any team that has won recently has done a tire test of the fast tires.  Just grab a set of tires and test them on a practice day before the race and try them out.  That's all it really takes to have a back to back comparison.

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1 hour ago, TimS said:

How about minimum 10 minute pit stop if changing more than one tire with fuel. And 5 minutes for more than one tire no fuel. Standard 5 minute stop for fuel. 

 

Something like this sounds like the logical path to me to reduce the incentive to swap tires for optimal lap times (not just replacing a worn tire) through a race.  The series already places minimum pit stop times based on certain actions.

 

I also think a max width of no greater than 300mm would be another good limit.  Does the series want vehicles that have the ability/need to run 300+mm wide tires?  For all the complaints about speed creep, this would seem to place at least some limitation on it.

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1 hour ago, atxe30 said:

I don't think the series should be in the business of specifying tires. who's going to do the work of staying on top of testing and eval as new tire models come out, etc. you want the teams to make those decisions within the context of rule compliance. The structure i threw out above will absolutely force the retirement of the sticky tires because you won't be able to successfully complete an event by using them.

 

Also, let's take this specific situation (GBU). If that team can only bring 3 sets of tires to an event, do you think they will show up with super soft tires? of course they won't, they'd have to find a tire that is hard enough where they can make it through the weekend. which means a de-facto slower tire, which means you solve the lap time discrepancy, and by extension the closure speed rate concerns, etc, etc.

 

you can find rules that are elegantly simple to solve your problem, just gotta have the KISS directive squarely in mind, otherwise you end up with all kinds of challenges enforcing them and serving way to many masters: see the BCCR.

Enforcing a weekend tire limit is about as far from KISS as you can get.

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9 minutes ago, Bremsen said:

a max width of no greater than 300mm would be another good limit.  Does the series want vehicles that have the ability/need to run 300+mm wide tires?  For all the complaints about speed creep, this would seem to place at least some limitation on it.

This does little, it only affects a small portion of the argument as most folks keep it under 300mm

 

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11 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

How about tire size based off weight. Weight to be determined by the OEM weight. Say  up to 2500lbs 205, 2750 225, 3000 245, 3250 265 with a max of 285? Spitballing here. 

So now we're weighing cars? How much leeway will there be to game that process? 

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6 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Enforcing a weekend tire limit is about as far from KISS as you can get.

To me, it's a helluva lot easier than some of the other onerous and unreasonably suggestions being made. Objective selection of tires to disallow, limiting sizes based on race car weight, etc.. 

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21 minutes ago, Bremsen said:

 

Something like this sounds like the logical path to me to reduce the incentive to swap tires for optimal lap times (not just replacing a worn tire) through a race.  The series already places minimum pit stop times based on certain actions.

 

I also think a max width of no greater than 300mm would be another good limit.  Does the series want vehicles that have the ability/need to run 300+mm wide tires?  For all the complaints about speed creep, this would seem to place at least some limitation on it.

If Champcar could be trusted to use real weights and not the fudge factor fictitious farce that the swap calculator turned into, width to weight could work. Race weight/10 (or 9 or 11 or ...) = section width.

 

But the resistance to using physics and/or math to regulate vehicle performance is strong here.

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24 minutes ago, Snorman said:

To me, it's a helluva lot easier than some of the other onerous and unreasonably suggestions being made. Objective selection of tires to disallow, limiting sizes based on race car weight, etc.. 

So a ChampCar official is going to go around on Friday or Saturday morning and mark every tire that a team will be using in a way that can’t be replicated? 

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