Limit HP Max

[MR2 Biohazard]

What would be the pros and cons of limiting the maximum hp you can have in the series?

 

I was thinking 275 to 299hp range based on the weights of the cars and the hp curve of the swap calculator. Do we really want 400hp cars out there running with 135hp Miatas with a speed differential of 30-50mph?

 

The issue would be how to police it? Champcar could purchase a black box device to put in suspect car as other organizations have.

 

 

[Ian]

I'm not sure a solid power ceiling is the way to go.

 

Sure 300 hp will make a light car fast, but newer cars are heavy, and that 300 hp doesn't go far when the car weighs 3500#.

 

The bungled E30 swap weight fiasco from a few years back brought to light the huge discrepancy in vehicle weights "as raced".  Therefore maybe it's time to add a P/W limit rule to keep things in check.

 

Set the limit high enough that currently competing teams aren't really at risk besides a few stragglers like GBU.  Say 10/1 lbs per WHP.

 

This would be an add-on rule to supplement the rest of the rulebook, not a total re-write.  Could be relatively easily policed with an occasional mobil dyno rental, and the surprise use of a "black box" or 2.

 

Its not perfect, and wouldn't all out prevent another GBU unicorn, but it could absolutely help.  If paired with a new tire rule, together they could put a ceiling on the speed leap we've seen lately.

Edited September 16, 2020 by SonsOfIrony

[MR2 Biohazard]

12 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

I'm not sure a solid power ceiling is the way to go.

 

Sure 300 hp will make a light car fast, but newer cars are heavy, and that 300 hp doesn't go far when the car weighs 3500#.

 

The bungled E30 swap weight fiasco from a few years back brought to light the huge discrepancy in vehicle weights "as raced".  Therefore maybe it's time to add a P/W limit rule to keep things in check.

 

Set the limit high enough that currently competing teams aren't really at risk besides a few stragglers like GBU.  Say 10/1 lbs per WHP.

 

This would be an add-on rule to supplement the rest of the rulebook, not a total re-write.  Could be relatively easily policed with an occasional mobil dyno rental, and the surprise use of a "black box" or 2.

 

Its not perfect, and wouldn't all out prevent another GBU unicorn, but it could absolutely help.  If paired with a new tire rule, together they could put a ceiling on the speed leap we've seen lately.

Which cars are 3500lbs and have over 300hp? I do not know of any in Champcar currently over 300hp except for the GBU and I think the vette is around 400hp. I can see a mustang in the high 200 range and close to 300, but not over. I would think it would not be over because that just suck up so much fuel it would not do them any good at that point. I see the above 300hp being able to have such a mph speed advantage that it can get dangerous.  When I raced ST3 we all had the same hp to weight, but the heavier cars with more hp had a huge speed advantage on the straights as they could overcome the aero speed barrier. I was 1000lbs lighter, same hp to weight, had a car with better aero and was slippery in the air, yet the higher hp cars pulled me mid straight away and were like 20mph faster.

 

I do agree that if could limit hp and address the tire usage we could curtail speed creep a lot, or at least give some of the faster cars laps based on tires to equal things out.

 

 

[karman1970]

Most of the issues the Vette presented would go away if it have been given a logical VPI.  Absolutely no reason on earth to drop it from 500 to 150.  And then to somehow NOT expect a car like this to show up?  Come on, man.

 

As far as max HP goes, there are already cars on the VPI list that are rated at or over 300 bone stock.  4th gen F-bodies, LT1 C4s, 5th gen Mustangs, Marauder, GTO (400), XJS, 350Z.  I'm sure there are others.

[mindspin311]

For real? Did you miss the whole thread that @riche30 posted?

[TKRiggs]

2 hours ago, karman1970 said:

Most of the issues the Vette presented would go away if it have been given a logical VPI.  Absolutely no reason on earth to drop it from 500 to 150.  And then to somehow NOT expect a car like this to show up?  Come on, man.

 

As far as max HP goes, there are already cars on the VPI list that are rated at or over 300 bone stock.  4th gen F-bodies, LT1 C4s, 5th gen Mustangs, Marauder, GTO (400), XJS, 350Z.  I'm sure there are others.

Couldn't agree with this more.  Fix the VPI, enforce the rules consistently and most of the issues go away (of course the rules are going to change so who knows).  It's my opinion there are a few others with VPIs that are "off".    There are a lot of ideas on how to fix the issues (real issues or perceived issues; specific to the Vette or all encompassing) but I don't think they deal with the root of the issue nor do they necessarily protect/address the spirit of why we do what we do (or why I do this ).  I don't necessarily have the answers, and appreciate everyones ideas....but starting at the base with VPIs is a good place to start (in my opinion).  Is that on TAC?  Or why not a member committee to review these?  If we as members miss something we only have ourselves to blame and not MC, the board nor TAC.  

[MoparBoyy]

2 minutes ago, TKRiggs said:

enforce the rules consistently and most of the issues go away

 

this would have solved everything for the GBU car.  the thing should have been 700-800 vpi the way it sits now.

[turbogrill]

2 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

this would have solved everything for the GBU car.  the thing should have been 700-800 vpi the way it sits now.

 

But the 400whp would still be obtainable with 200 pts or so? (Cam, Head, Tb, dissy)

 

If you throw 200 pts on anything with large displacement you get big HP numbers I guess.  

[MoparBoyy]

2 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

But the 400whp would still be obtainable with 200 pts or so? (Cam, Head, Tb, dissy)

 

If you throw 200 pts on anything with large displacement you get big HP numbers I guess.  

 

yes, but if you throw 400hp at it with a stock rear suspension and having to run a 285 tire because you'd have to run the stock body vs an aftermarket one.  

 

the VPI is too low for a car with 24 gallons of fuel, but the larger issue with GBU is that they have a car that should be in EC allowed to run in a class.

[Final Turn Motorsports]

9 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

the VPI is too low for a car with 24 gallons of fuel, but the larger issue with GBU is that they have a car that should be in EC allowed to run in a class.

And you sir get the Chicken Dinner.

[TiredBirds]

5 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

What would be the pros and cons of limiting the maximum hp you can have in the series?

 

I was thinking 275 to 299hp range based on the weights of the cars and the hp curve of the swap calculator. Do we really want 400hp cars out there running with 135hp Miatas with a speed differential of 30-50mph?

 

The issue would be how to police it? Champcar could purchase a black box device to put in suspect car as other organizations have.

 

 

takes a lot less power to get a Miata around the track than it does a 3000lb F-Body.  

[veris]

The GBU issue is solved with a reasonable VPI.  A C3 Corvette doesn't have the performance of a K car [ another 150 point vehicle ]. It seems crazy to me that a dodge neon is 100 points more than a V8 Corvette with 24 gallons of fuel. 

 

In regards to the original point, if you want to restrict hp you limit CFM via restrictor plates or throttle body size. It is easy to measure and enforce. Turbo and FI would have to have smaller sizes based on a standardized boost pressure. The question is how you determine sizes. Is it by displacement, race weight, oe car weight, etc

Edited September 16, 2020 by veris

[TiredBirds]

FWIW It doesn't take much to get a SBC to 300hp, even 400 is pretty easy with the points structure now. 

[mindspin311]

[MR2 Biohazard]

4 hours ago, mindspin311 said:

For real? Did you miss the whole thread that @riche30 posted?

For real, I did read it. His hp to weight would alienate 37% of the field and would not work.

[Black Magic]

If you actually want some sort of bookend limits on PWR in the series we could at least move motor mods into a calculator and off the fixed VPI list. If you entered the engine base power and had multipliers for the engine mods, this could give you an "estimated" power that is plugged into something that resembles the swap calculator. This gives a net VPI of the combo to use in your logbook. 

 

Otherwise you will end up with the potential for huge power difference in the series, since engine mods are relatively cheap. Plus if VPI adjusted for team A that assumes no car on the planet can be made with the stock chassis, and team B that finds a way to make the chassis work and has hundreds of points to spend on the engine.....well you get what we all knew would happen (Indy).

 

I suppose limiting fuel per weight would also be a way to cap power, ironically many of the "didn't pick your car" crowd may now wish for fuel parity......

Edited September 16, 2020 by Black Magic

[enginerd]

2 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

ironically many of the "didn't pick your car" crowd may now wish for fuel parity......

My opinion hasn’t changed. 

[MR2 Biohazard]

5 hours ago, karman1970 said:

Most of the issues the Vette presented would go away if it have been given a logical VPI.  Absolutely no reason on earth to drop it from 500 to 150.  And then to somehow NOT expect a car like this to show up?  Come on, man.

 

As far as max HP goes, there are already cars on the VPI list that are rated at or over 300 bone stock.  4th gen F-bodies, LT1 C4s, 5th gen Mustangs, Marauder, GTO (400), XJS, 350Z.  I'm sure there are others.

I see almost all of these at the 300hp mark and below and when you consider rwhp probably much below.

 

350z is less than 306 max

5th gen mustangs are 300

lt1 vette is less than 300

marauder 302 hp

 

The XJS at 370hp might be a bit much.

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

My opinion hasn’t changed. 

The most John Condrin statement ever said.

 

You know what that really means and why he started saying that right?

[TiredBirds]

5 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I see almost all of these at the 300hp mark and below and when you consider rwhp probably much below.

 

350z is less than 306 max

5th gen mustangs are 300

lt1 vette is less than 300

marauder 302 hp

 

The XJS at 370hp might be a bit much.

 

I can make 400 with a SBC w/o much issue and still be way under 500 points. Factory ratings are a moot point. Our 305 had a factory rating of 215-220. I assure you it is much higher now. And we didn't even do anything crazy. 

[Snorman]

The reason the Corvette is making so much power (and I am sure it has a beefy shortblock too) is that it has enough points for heads, cam and intake. Curiously, they claim to be running the stock ignition (seriously doubt). It also has 24 gallons of fuel.

 

[TiredBirds]

2 hours ago, Snorman said:

The reason the Corvette is making so much power (and I am sure it has a beefy shortblock too) is that it has enough points for heads, cam and intake. Curiously, they claim to be running the stock ignition (seriously doubt). It also has 24 gallons of fuel.

 

24 gallons of fuel is the kicker. I though Gen II F-body were a steal at 150 points. 

[mindspin311]

3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

For real, I did read it. His hp to weight would alienate 37% of the field and would not work.

So you find a better metric. No need to repeat a topic. It was a 1st pass. What ruleset gets accepted/approved based on the 1st draft?

[riche30]

20 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

For real, I did read it. His hp to weight would alienate 37% of the field and would not work.

It wouldn't alienate 37% of the field.  Yes, some cars would need to make adjustments by adding weight or ballast back (ballast would be legal in my ruleset).  My best guess was that it completely eliminated maybe 2 cars on that graph posted (our Datsun and your MR2)

[veris]

I like the effort taken, but the impacts are too large for many cars. 

 

With the variety of cars winning it doesn't appear to be a rule book issue; it appears to be a) a VPI issue b) selective implementation of the rules. Lets start there before draconian changes are made. 

 

If we need a new rule it should be that VPIs don't change more then 100 points in a year. If the corvette hadn't been dropped by 350 points last year we wouldn't be having this conversation. For the record, IMO, the c3 corvette should have a 250 to 350 VPI.