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I have been reading all of the recent topics regarding Indy and it appears that it may be time for everyone to take a deep breath.

 

My reasons for doing this are completely selfish.  I had full intentions to build another car to compete in an endurance series.  I had built a car for another series and it won its very first race in EC.  That event was primarily used as a shakedown for the other series and the race car was based on one of the most popular platforms in Champcar.  I don't like the way the other series has expanded which has created an unsafe difference in closing speeds.  Therefore I was hoping to to build the car to Champcar specs but with the latest revelations coming from the Indy event I won't justify the time and expense.

 

Let's face it; this situation created trauma for the series and the competitors.  I have seen this may times in my 50 years of motorsports.  I have never seen the situation/trauma resolved properly nor to the satisfaction of those involved.

 

I am going to list what I believe are the most important processes that need to take place so that the majority of those involved can feel secure that the series can move forward.

 

#1  When human beings have been harmed whether physically or emotionally we look for protection and security.  As such, there needs to be reassurance from the leadership of Champcar that this issue will be investigated and solutions will be implemented.

 

I have viewed the majority of the videos that have been posted by the highest level of the leadership in Champcar.  Not once have the participants been thanked for making the series a success.  I find them dull.  Anyone who has run a business knows that the one of the keys to a successful business is to thank anyone involved at every opportunity.  This would be a good time to provide reassurance and show what the participants mean to the leadership.  This should be done on this forum and other platforms as well.

 

#2  From the comments there are plenty if items that are believed to be violations of the rules.  Instead of responding to each and every allegation the team leadership should admit to the items that they believe were beyond the limitations of the Champcar rule book regardless whether they were approved.  Why would they participate in another Champcar event if they know that every competitor is going to take every opportunity to attack all aspects of the build?  That sounds like hell and absolutely zero fun.  In addition, if this particular team participates in other forms of motorsport; and they have sponsors, they absolutely cannot afford to have sponsors demonized because of a lack of foresight on the part of the team leadership.

 

#3  Anger in motorsports is a dead end is more ways than one.  It is imperative that everyone (drivers, crew, team owners, directors, leadership, volunteers, etc) take time to do their very best to calm down.  If one brings anger to a discussion there can never be resolution.

 

Please keep this topic on a positive track and if you still need to vent, go create your own to bash the situation further.  I hope this helps.  I would really like to get back into racing but never under the current circumstances.

 

KP

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Is the middle ground that location where everyone has to follow the rules? I'm happy to compete against teams with deep pockets, if they don't get the rules rewritten for them!

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass

I will answer one of the issues. I thank every team I meet at every race I go to which is 99% of the races. I thank them for choosing us to race with, and I hope they come back. I know for a fact

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I understand your post in this topic far more than the previous one!

I will chime in and say I think most of us who are unhappy with this situation have only the best of intentions when we want it corrected. If frankensupercars are allowed to run amok in the series it will only kill participation over time (you highlighted this well with your thoughts as a newbie considering champcar). People want a chance to compete and don't want to be blown out of the water by something that seems to play by a different, unpublished rulebook.

You make many good points - in particular, becoming adversarial with your customers instead of thanking them and ensuring you're looking out for them nearly killed the series with the previous owner and none of us want that happening under new management.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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2 hours ago, oldnlearning said:

Try this episode of Dinnerwithracers for a lesson in bizarre and taking a build well beyond what was intended.  http://www.dinnerwithracers.com/episode-8-the-level-5-special/

Unintended consequences can be devastating.

 

And now we're off topic, which is normal. But that is one of my favorite episodes, just for hearing how ridiculous that build was.

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You're not the only disenfranchised former WRL member.  We planned to build a car specifically for their series, only to have entry fees jump by 20-50% with no value add, along with a bunch of races within reasonable distance being canceled.

 

We've come back to CCES because it most closely aligns with our goal as a team.  But we do want to compete, and after watching the Indy broadcasts, there is no competing with the Riley Corvette unless it breaks, or it carries a large MOV penalty on the second day of a two day race weekend.  Day one of the Indy broadcast was boring because the corvette was untouchable.  Racing should never be boring.  Many of us are patiently waiting for some sort of update from the management.

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I posted this under the GBU tire thread yesterday. Probably this a better place to put my opinion that is similar to others here.

 

"Enough with the drama over one car that got by some how and beat the crap out of everyone and then some. Let's just do as Huggy suggests. Pressure the management to manage this team. I think every race and track has its 1%ers tearing it up. From what I have read this is not first time nor will it be the last time. The car can be removed or just EC it and be done with it. Very cool build just dont have the cash to compete at that level. I run my race. Pass me 100 times. Your still a winner for just entering. I enjoy the journey. I love Champcar for the laps and wheel to wheel racing. If I ever get on the podium it will be pure luck. Anyone wanting first place may think of a series that cares your first. This all over a trophy and bragging to who? Its amature racing. Just think of the guys at GBU might say. "Remember the year we built our corvette spanked the field and got banned".  What a story to tell. Go out while on top"

 

 

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4 minutes ago, 333 Kinkle said:

I posted this under the GBU tire thread yesterday. Probably this a better place to put my opinion that is similar to others here.

 

"Enough with the drama over one car that got by some how and beat the crap out of everyone and then some. Let's just do as Huggy suggests. Pressure the management to manage this team. I think every race and track has its 1%ers tearing it up. From what I have read this is not first time nor will it be the last time. The car can be removed or just EC it and be done with it. Very cool build just dont have the cash to compete at that level. I run my race. Pass me 100 times. Your still a winner for just entering. I enjoy the journey. I love Champcar for the laps and wheel to wheel racing. If I ever get on the podium it will be pure luck. Anyone wanting first place may think of a series that cares your first. This all over a trophy and bragging to who? Its amature racing. Just think of the guys at GBU might say. "Remember the year we built our corvette spanked the field and got banned".  What a story to tell. Go out while on top"

 

 

It ain't a matter of GBU building a car and spanking the field.  It is a matter of tech not enforcing the BCCR equally to everyone. Certain teams had blind eyes looking at them while others were raked with fine toothed combs.  And if you take the time to look, a pattern is emerging.

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4 hours ago, XelderX said:

 

 

Short rulebook...

To clarify in case some people don't listen to the stort; The short rule book resulted in a team spending, presumably a million+, to win the SCCA runoffs in 2012.

 

Short rulebooks = big dollars

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On 9/17/2020 at 6:28 PM, LuckyKid said:

To clarify in case some people don't listen to the stort; The short rule book resulted in a team spending, presumably a million+, to win the SCCA runoffs in 2012.

 

Short rulebooks = big dollars

 

Short rulebooks with no bookends = big dollars.  There is another series that limits speed creep based on minimum lap times.  If you are 9sec a lap faster than the rest of the field, you get a warning and if you fail to heed said warning, you get bumped to EC for that race.  You want to spend $75,000 on a car you can only run slightly faster than a spec e46, have at it, but it keeps those teams in check but allows them to spend whatever they want.  Its not perfect by any means, but its better than nothing.

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On 9/17/2020 at 7:29 PM, Final Turn Motorsports said:

It ain't a matter of GBU building a car and spanking the field.  It is a matter of tech not enforcing the BCCR equally to everyone. Certain teams had blind eyes looking at them while others were raked with fine toothed combs.  And if you take the time to look, a pattern is emerging.

 

this.  

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4 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

 

Short rulebooks with no bookends = big dollars.  There is another series that limits speed creep based on minimum lap times.  If you are 9sec a lap faster than the rest of the field, you get a warning and if you fail to heed said warning, you get bumped to EC for that race.  You want to spend $75,000 on a car you can only run slightly faster than a spec e46, have at it, but it keeps those teams in check but allows them to spend whatever they want.  Its not perfect by any means, but its better than nothing.

 

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass.

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15 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass.

QFT

I can’t get over the part where I could show up with an identical car as another team and get a different bracket if they are slower drivers. 

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4 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

 

Short rulebooks with no bookends = big dollars.  There is another series that limits speed creep based on minimum lap times.  If you are 9sec a lap faster than the rest of the field, you get a warning and if you fail to heed said warning, you get bumped to EC for that race.  You want to spend $75,000 on a car you can only run slightly faster than a spec e46, have at it, but it keeps those teams in check but allows them to spend whatever they want.  Its not perfect by any means, but its better than nothing.

 

How can you get a warning if you are to fast??

 

Sounds like the strategy would be to have your fastest driver drive slow and safe?

 

So it becomes a game of not driving fast but driving at specific lap time?

 

Edit: would make sense if you had a very experienced driver drive all cars and classify them. But sounds nuts

Edited by turbogrill
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40 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass.

 

I bet there are very few cars actually sand-bagging the entire race.  Maybe an individual driver here and there if they are a hotshoe on a team of average Joes.  If they ran west of the Mississippi I'd be tempted to give em a try.  I find any opportunity to go beat on my car and practice my driving to be a good time, regardless of the scoring and classing gimmicks a series may use.  Heck, I even find drag racing to be fun if there's nothing else around.  I just like going fast!  :)

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36 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

I bet there are very few cars actually sand-bagging the entire race.  Maybe an individual driver here and there if they are a hotshoe on a team of average Joes.

Teams that sandbag don't call it sandbagging, "wise" "only what it takes" etc. Happens all the time/everywhere.

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:05 AM, oldnlearning said:

I have viewed the majority of the videos that have been posted by the highest level of the leadership in Champcar.  Not once have the participants been thanked for making the series a success.  I find them dull.  Anyone who has run a business knows that the one of the keys to a successful business is to thank anyone involved at every opportunity.  This would be a good time to provide reassurance and show what the participants mean to the leadership.  This should be done on this forum and other platforms as well.

I will answer one of the issues.
I thank every team I meet at every race I go to which is 99% of the races. I thank them for choosing us to race with, and I hope they come back.
I know for a fact that our team of event directors do the exact same thing. 
I do it in emails, in private messages, and to their faces.
I would even do it on the show from time to time.

 

this issue was looked at from the highest. it has been worked through, and you will see results in the coming weeks.
We don't put dirty laundry out there for all to see, though the Internet loves this. We won't play those games.
Thank you for your feedback, and I will pass it onto the boss.

 

And... again... thank you for choosing to race with ChampCar, we know you have a few other options out there, and we are honored you continue to support us.

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2 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass.

I've been a driver on teams taking overall wins at races in CC, 24HOL, WRL and LDRL.

Hardest I have ever worked at driving, by far, was the "bracket" race FWIW.

I would suggest you "don't knock it till you've tried it".

 

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43 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I've been a driver on teams taking overall wins at races in CC, 24HOL, WRL and LDRL.

Hardest I have ever worked at driving, by far, was the "bracket" race FWIW.

I would suggest you "don't knock it till you've tried it".

 

 

 

That's all well and good, and obviously some people enjoy it.  But as a team, we're constantly evolving.  Maybe when we reach the point where the entire team can consistently put down 9/10ths laps for a whole race a bracket "could" become more enticing, but we're a group of friends.  We enjoy pushing each other to drive faster stint to stint, and weekend to weekend as much as anything else.  Depending on where the car lands between breaking out of a bracket vs being slow is hanging over our heads, it could ruin that.  I'd hate to choose between losing or losing, or sandbagging.

 

 

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On 9/17/2020 at 11:05 AM, oldnlearning said:

I have been reading all of the recent topics regarding Indy and it appears that it may be time for everyone to take a deep breath.

 

My reasons for doing this are completely selfish.  I had full intentions to build another car to compete in an endurance series.  I had built a car for another series and it won its very first race in EC.  That event was primarily used as a shakedown for the other series and the race car was based on one of the most popular platforms in Champcar.  I don't like the way the other series has expanded which has created an unsafe difference in closing speeds.  Therefore I was hoping to to build the car to Champcar specs but with the latest revelations coming from the Indy event I won't justify the time and expense.

 

Let's face it; this situation created trauma for the series and the competitors.  I have seen this may times in my 50 years of motorsports.  I have never seen the situation/trauma resolved properly nor to the satisfaction of those involved.

 

I am going to list what I believe are the most important processes that need to take place so that the majority of those involved can feel secure that the series can move forward.

 

#1  When human beings have been harmed whether physically or emotionally we look for protection and security.  As such, there needs to be reassurance from the leadership of Champcar that this issue will be investigated and solutions will be implemented.

 

I have viewed the majority of the videos that have been posted by the highest level of the leadership in Champcar.  Not once have the participants been thanked for making the series a success.  I find them dull.  Anyone who has run a business knows that the one of the keys to a successful business is to thank anyone involved at every opportunity.  This would be a good time to provide reassurance and show what the participants mean to the leadership.  This should be done on this forum and other platforms as well.

 

#2  From the comments there are plenty if items that are believed to be violations of the rules.  Instead of responding to each and every allegation the team leadership should admit to the items that they believe were beyond the limitations of the Champcar rule book regardless whether they were approved.  Why would they participate in another Champcar event if they know that every competitor is going to take every opportunity to attack all aspects of the build?  That sounds like hell and absolutely zero fun.  In addition, if this particular team participates in other forms of motorsport; and they have sponsors, they absolutely cannot afford to have sponsors demonized because of a lack of foresight on the part of the team leadership.

 

#3  Anger in motorsports is a dead end is more ways than one.  It is imperative that everyone (drivers, crew, team owners, directors, leadership, volunteers, etc) take time to do their very best to calm down.  If one brings anger to a discussion there can never be resolution.

 

Please keep this topic on a positive track and if you still need to vent, go create your own to bash the situation further.  I hope this helps.  I would really like to get back into racing but never under the current circumstances.

 

KP

Sorry you find my videos dull.  I guess that's to be expected.  Since you've already seen the majority of my videos, here's a sample of a few I threw together that would likely surprise you. I have many more examples. 

 

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7 hours ago, Paulie said:

Sorry you find my videos dull.  I guess that's to be expected.  Since you've already seen the majority of my videos, here's a sample of a few I threw together that would likely surprise you. I have many more examples. 

 

FWIW I don't think he is talking about the race broadcasts.....

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7 hours ago, Paulie said:

Sorry you find my videos dull.  I guess that's to be expected.  Since you've already seen the majority of my videos, here's a sample of a few I threw together that would likely surprise you. I have many more examples. 

 

 

Yah, I don't think they're talking about the race broadcasts.

 

You do a fantastic job with ChampCarLive, and I believe we're a better series because of it.  None of the other ameture series have anything close.

 

If the racing seems boring, (like Indy Saturday) it's because it wasn't much of a race.  It was just a really fast pace car running down the clock.  Y'all made the best of it, and there are many of us who would sorely miss it if it were gone.  Thanks for putting it together.

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:05 AM, oldnlearning said:

Anyone who has run a business knows that the one of the keys to a successful business is to thank anyone involved at every opportunity.

I was not referring to the race broadcasts.

On 9/17/2020 at 10:05 AM, oldnlearning said:

by the highest level

At the very tippy tippy top.

 

KP

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11 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

 

That's all well and good, and obviously some people enjoy it.  But as a team, we're constantly evolving.  Maybe when we reach the point where the entire team can consistently put down 9/10ths laps for a whole race a bracket "could" become more enticing, but we're a group of friends.  We enjoy pushing each other to drive faster stint to stint, and weekend to weekend as much as anything else.  Depending on where the car lands between breaking out of a bracket vs being slow is hanging over our heads, it could ruin that.  I'd hate to choose between losing or losing, or sandbagging.

 

 

I'm not here to talk you into anything (although I don't think I've ever steered you wrong in the past), but I think the assumptions you are making about "bracket" racing are unfounded and if you happened to have one fit your schedule and budget I would encourage you to give it a try, I'd be shocked if you didn't have a good time.

 

The only people I think those rules wouldn't be a good fit for are those that like to build a car to the limit and take every creative advantage that they can, not that there is anything wrong with that mindset. I'm an engineer and a problem solver, I loved working within the very open rulebook of Formula SAE and the creativity that it actively encouraged. However, budget endurance racing for me has been about bang for the buck, and being able to build the car any way you choose to maximize that and still being put into whichever class you best fit is very attractive to me. 

 

Anyway, not trying to make a debate out of this either, but there are often posts made here turning their nose up at other rulesets, which is to be expected, just sharing some of my personal experience as a counterpoint. They certainly don't have a problem with "unicorn" builds stinking up the show over there :)

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