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Guys we are looking to adjust all huge fuel tanked cars with low VPIs.  We don't want to play whack a mole with just the Vette.  We are working on it.  

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Is the middle ground that location where everyone has to follow the rules? I'm happy to compete against teams with deep pockets, if they don't get the rules rewritten for them!

I'll be honest.  Bracket endurance racing sounds like The most boring thing in the world.  Who wants to drive around with a bunch of rich guys who are either sand bagging, or sucky drivers.  Hard pass

I will answer one of the issues. I thank every team I meet at every race I go to which is 99% of the races. I thank them for choosing us to race with, and I hope they come back. I know for a fact

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Guys we are looking to adjust all huge fuel tanked cars with low VPIs.  We don't want to play whack a mole with just the Vette.  We are working on it.  

Appreciate the feedback.
May want to wait until after the road America re-tech and discussion about mods and what was claimed and what wasn’t and how certain mods were given such a low value. It may be the case that the VPI doesn’t need as big a change as it currently appears once it is teched fairly (assuming it wasn’t teched fairly already).

 

I would hate for this to sharpen the pitchforks of certain members who would just love to say “oh wow, a corvette wins one time and the VPI goes way up but BMWs have been winning since inception!”

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8 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Appreciate the feedback.
May want to wait until after the road America re-tech and discussion about mods and what was claimed and what wasn’t and how certain mods were given such a low value. It may be the case that the VPI doesn’t need as big a change as it currently appears once it is tech fairly (assuming it wasn’t teched fairly already).

 

I would hate for this to sharpen the pitchforks of certain members who would just love to say “oh wow, a corvette wins one time and the VPI goes way up but BMWs have been winning since inception!”

Agreed with this Nate but boy you left the door open, but only since it's Friday.

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11 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Appreciate the feedback.
May want to wait until after the road America re-tech and discussion about mods and what was claimed and what wasn’t and how certain mods were given such a low value. It may be the case that the VPI doesn’t need as big a change as it currently appears once it is tech fairly (assuming it wasn’t teched fairly already).

 

I would hate for this to sharpen the pitchforks of certain members who would just love to say “oh wow, a corvette wins one time and the VPI goes way up but BMWs have been winning since inception!”

 

The C3 corvette is 1/2 the value of a 1987 Jeep Cherokee. 

The C3 corvette has a lower value than this:

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9 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

The C3 corvette is 1/2 the value of a 1987 Jeep Cherokee. 

The C3 corvette has a lower value than this:

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Sounds like the Jeep Cherokee and (whatever the heck that thing is) need to be lowered!

(and corvette raised)

Just saying.. exercise caution 

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53 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Appreciate the feedback.
May want to wait until after the road America re-tech and discussion about mods and what was claimed and what wasn’t and how certain mods were given such a low value. It may be the case that the VPI doesn’t need as big a change as it currently appears once it is teched fairly (assuming it wasn’t teched fairly already).

 

I would hate for this to sharpen the pitchforks of certain members who would just love to say “oh wow, a corvette wins one time and the VPI goes way up but BMWs have been winning since inception!”

 

I agree.  Just a VPI increase glosses over some of the things that happened.  I think collectively we have made enough noise, and pointed out many of the things that contributed to GBU blowing everyone away that hopefully the BOD isn't just going to do a knee jerk reaction on this one.

 

I love to speculate as must as the next guy, but I trust at least a few of them to do the job right.  And I don't know the rest.

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4 hours ago, oldnlearning said:

 

I was not referring to the race broadcasts.

At the very tippy tippy top.

 

KP

The clips I ran together were not from any of the race broadcasts.  They were from a few of my race recaps, a random drivers meeting and a couple of the CEO's red flag videos.  98% of the ChampCar video's you see are coming from my desk, including the dull ones.  Unlike some who think they've seen the majority, I've seen every single one.  I've been working with these people for four years now and know each of them well.  I can assure you that they are all grateful for the members and speak of it in videos as I've demonstrated.  Even the tippy top management know that racers can race anywhere with anyone and speak their appreciation.  That's why Bill or I make it a point to thank everyone at the close of the broadcasts and the Race Recaps.  We do so because we know we speak for all of us.  You can be sure that running a club like this is very challenging on multiple fronts.  As the leader, you must have a very thick hide because you take a litany of continuous criticisms that are in no way fair to you, your intensions or your staff as you work hard to do good for the staff, its members and the good of the club.  That thick hide can sometimes work both ways.  I am routinely impressed by this clubs leadership, which as in insider I can tell you, is generally underappreciated.  A little grace from the membership and a lot of grace from the leadership is what makes everything work and apparently it's working.  So, as I and many others have said over the years, thank you so much for choosing ChampCar as your club!  We realize there are several choices for you, that you can race with any organization, and we genuinely appreciate your continued support of this series as we all work together to both enjoy and further this fantastic sport of endurance motor racing.   -Paul Veltum - Broadcast Engineer / Producer ChampCar.Live.

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17 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

I will answer one of the issues.
I thank every team I meet at every race I go to which is 99% of the races. I thank them for choosing us to race with, and I hope they come back.
I know for a fact that our team of event directors do the exact same thing. 
I do it in emails, in private messages, and to their faces.

Bill,

 

Thank you for saying this. I would strongly encourage the BOD/Tech, etc.. to take this same approach, particularly in person at events. Some members of CCES were wholly unprofessional in person at IMS. I find it ridiculous that the team being protested carried themselves with more decorum and class than the CCES staff. Also, while I understand the BOD not wanting to put dirty laundry out on the internet, they certainly could put out a positive message of support and commitment to sort this out on behalf of all 4,000 members.

 

Of course, the bigger issue is how the "rules" are applied differently to each team and the penalties are also applied differently to each team. There's a bunch of high school kids driving around in clapped out civics that have a better understanding of what a strut tower brace is and isn't. What happened with Tech before Saturday at IMS with regards to approving or interpreting certain items and what happened at tech on Saturday at IMS both run entirely counter to the spirit of CCES and any supposedly "self-policing" series.

 

BTW, we're still waiting on our Dragon from Saturday...

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

The C3 corvette is 1/2 the value of a 1987 Jeep Cherokee. 

The C3 corvette has a lower value than this:

spacer.png

Bring on the Roadmaster!!! These two could both have some fun at RA, one sled to another.

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28 minutes ago, c_leffe said:

Bill,

 

Thank you for saying this. I would strongly encourage the BOD/Tech, etc.. to take this same approach, particularly in person at events. Some members of CCES were wholly unprofessional in person at IMS. I find it ridiculous that the team being protested carried themselves with more decorum and class than the CCES staff. Also, while I understand the BOD not wanting to put dirty laundry out on the internet, they certainly could put out a positive message of support and commitment to sort this out on behalf of all 4,000 members.

 

Of course, the bigger issue is how the "rules" are applied differently to each team and the penalties are also applied differently to each team. There's a bunch of high school kids driving around in clapped out civics that have a better understanding of what a strut tower brace is and isn't. What happened with Tech before Saturday at IMS with regards to approving or interpreting certain items and what happened at tech on Saturday at IMS both run entirely counter to the spirit of CCES and any supposedly "self-policing" series.

 

BTW, we're still waiting on our Dragon from Saturday...

Hey C_leffe.  Sorry about the trophy.  I did forward a message out about this to the company slack to get back with you but most everyone is getting ready for a race this weekend.  If you haven't already, I'd send an email to info@champcar.org.  That's usually faster than using social media like the forum and FB and is more of a guarantee to be seen and routed to the right person(s).  See you at the track!

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2 hours ago, Jer said:

Guys we are looking to adjust all huge fuel tanked cars with low VPIs.  We don't want to play whack a mole with just the Vette.  We are working on it.  

 

Well this should provide some entertainment for my lunch hours over the next month.  Let me get this straight, a complete cheater car with its own secret rule book exposed the cracks in the rule book for the commoner teams?  So if an E30 showed up with a turbo and tech approves it as a hair dryer for driver comfort then said car lays waste to the field that would result in all BMW's getting hit with a 100+ point increase?

 

If points increases are coming this would be a great time to treat everybody fairly and hit some other obvious ones as well, not just the TBird for leading Tyler by half a lap that one time.

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Ron, that's not it at all.  The Vette will be re-teched at Road America.  But there are a slew of old cars with huge tanks, we can play whack a mole and just adjust the Vette, but then it will be a new tunaslapper buried in the vpi table.  We want to take care of a bunch of these/all of them at the same time for 2021.  None of them is regularly run that I am aware of.  

 

The new key to winning in this series is to start with a car with a large gas tank.  Then you put a thirsty powerful motor in it and viola! contender.  Or with a great team like Riley, an overdog.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

 

Well this should provide some entertainment for my lunch hours over the next month.  Let me get this straight, a complete cheater car with its own secret rule book exposed the cracks in the rule book for the commoner teams?  So if an E30 showed up with a turbo and tech approves it as a hair dryer for driver comfort then said car lays waste to the field that would result in all BMW's getting hit with a 100+ point increase?

 

If points increases are coming this would be a great time to treat everybody fairly and hit some other obvious ones as well, not just the TBird for leading Tyler by half a lap that one time.

Do you mean leading Tyler Pedersen? 

 

I think you might have some misplaced frustrations if that's what you are alluding to.

 

I could go on about what it seems like you an insinuating,  but I'll let Tyler's reputation and what he has done for the club speak for itself.

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Ron, that's not it at all.  The Vette will be re-teched at Road America.  But there are a slew of old cars with huge tanks, we can play whack a mole and just adjust the Vette, but then it will be a new tunaslapper buried in the vpi table.  We want to take care of a bunch of these/all of them at the same time for 2021.  None of them is regularly run that I am aware of.  

 

The new key to winning in this series is to start with a car with a large gas tank.  Then you put a thirsty powerful motor in it and viola! contender.  Or with a great team like Riley, an overdog.  

 

 

Jer, I will agree and say it's a tragedy that adjusting VPIs is the only action that came out of this.

I guess making a bunch more stuff free in the 2021 BCCR perhaps is another action but is that really the type of outcome we should expect from an incident like that?

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1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

If points increases are coming this would be a great time to treat everybody fairly and hit some other obvious ones as well, not just the TBird for leading Tyler by half a lap that one time.

 

IIRC I was the one to first suggest the TBird value increase. The Tbird was undervalued then, and is undervalued now. 

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

IIRC I was the one to first suggest the TBird value increase. The Tbird was undervalued then, and is undervalued now. 

Based on what?

I completely disagree. This is a thinly veiled attempt to VPI the car out of being competitive before it even has a chance. V8 Tbird is a 160 hp car only available with an automatic (and I'm sure Tech won't let it have any tranny it wants) and a solid rear axle in a 3500# chassis. But yeah, undervalued, lol.

 

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8 hours ago, Jer said:

Guys we are looking to adjust all huge fuel tanked cars with low VPIs.  We don't want to play whack a mole with just the Vette.  We are working on it.  

Dare I ask what criteria is being used to decide which ones need adjusting? Maybe we could help root through the VPI list.

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5 hours ago, c_leffe said:

Bill,

 

Thank you for saying this. I would strongly encourage the BOD/Tech, etc.. to take this same approach, particularly in person at events. Some members of CCES were wholly unprofessional in person at IMS. I find it ridiculous that the team being protested carried themselves with more decorum and class than the CCES staff. Also, while I understand the BOD not wanting to put dirty laundry out on the internet, they certainly could put out a positive message of support and commitment to sort this out on behalf of all 4,000 members.

 

Of course, the bigger issue is how the "rules" are applied differently to each team and the penalties are also applied differently to each team. There's a bunch of high school kids driving around in clapped out civics that have a better understanding of what a strut tower brace is and isn't. What happened with Tech before Saturday at IMS with regards to approving or interpreting certain items and what happened at tech on Saturday at IMS both run entirely counter to the spirit of CCES and any supposedly "self-policing" series.

 

BTW, we're still waiting on our Dragon from Saturday...

  So much talk about this shock/ strut brace that the GBU team were accessed 10 points for, just like everyone  else that installs one  .   If it was accessed as additional material, like as if it is not a shock brace as all the high schoolers would say , then it would be 7 points and everyone would be happy ...

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From my perspective just adjusting the VPI really will not do much at all. If your raise the vpi by 100 the aftermarket heads they run are 100 points and they can take them off. They can do all the magic they want with full CNC porting and even test multiple sets to get the most they can. They will not lose that much hp with vpi increase and over time they will learn areas to improve and therefore be faster in the future. As an organization I think it should be addressed and they should get appropriate laps or have to adjust their hp level and tires to be more realistic with their speed. I think we should address the reasons that car is so much faster than the field and then the speed can be reeled in. I personally would like them to have laps and race against them, even as the car stands now. I like the David vs Goliath story of the beating the professional Riley team with a car I work on all my free weekends in my own garage by myself.  I like the idea of being ahead of them, doing the math, knowing how fast they are going vs us and needing to push like heck to stay ahead in the end, if we can. I am all for that! I just am not for a simple vpi increase that really does nothing in end as it does not fix the route cause problem.

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6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

From my perspective just adjusting the VPI really will not do much at all. If your raise the vpi by 100 the aftermarket heads they run are 100 points and they can take them off. They can do all the magic they want with full CNC porting and even test multiple sets to get the most they can. They will not lose that much hp with vpi increase and over time they will learn areas to improve and therefore be faster in the future. As an organization I think it should be addressed and they should get appropriate laps or have to adjust their hp level and tires to be more realistic with their speed. I think we should address the reasons that car is so much faster than the field and then the speed can be reeled in. I personally would like them to have laps and race against them, even as the car stands now. I like the David vs Goliath story of the beating the professional Riley team with a car I work on all my free weekends in my own garage by myself.  I like the idea of being ahead of them, doing the math, knowing how fast they are going vs us and needing to push like heck to stay ahead in the end, if we can. I am all for that! I just am not for a simple vpi increase that really does nothing in end as it does not fix the route cause problem.

Nor does it address or fix pieces of the car that are not within the rules. Fabricated pieces, bodywork volume, cage extras, etc.  Without removing the parts that make that chassis "extra" rigid, we are fighting against a tube chassis with a stock frame rail.  

 

Wish i was going to Road America, would love to watch this car get teched.  Because unless it has had a serious makeover, it will still be an EC car.  My 2 cents

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2 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

  So much talk about this shock/ strut brace that the GBU team were accessed 10 points for, just like everyone  else that installs one  .   If it was accessed as additional material, like as if it is not a shock brace as all the high schoolers would say , then it would be 7 points and everyone would be happy ...

Just stop.

You are complicit in this. You gloated about this car coming into the series. You were part of the reason that it got reduced or zero points for myriad items. You gloated about the C3 with "295 front tires" like it was some kind of joke while the rest of us worked to come up with $1200-1400 race entry fees to race against a car you slid through Tech. 

We brought the Cobra through in December 2018. Your first question was "how much are you claiming for the hood" after your BS "interview" at our shop. Then you pulled out your measuring tape and said we needed to take 48 points. Thankfully, the Event Director had the common sense to over rule you. 

Where was this intent focus when GBU brought a car with a full aftermarket wide body kit and you assessed 45 points (about 30% of the actual material)? Or for myriad other items you slid through or ignored? 

Just sit this one out. It's an embarrassment and you are at the heart of it. This will hopefully be resolved at Road America and without your input.

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

From my perspective just adjusting the VPI really will not do much at all. If your raise the vpi by 100 the aftermarket heads they run are 100 points and they can take them off. They can do all the magic they want with full CNC porting and even test multiple sets to get the most they can. They will not lose that much hp with vpi increase and over time they will learn areas to improve and therefore be faster in the future. As an organization I think it should be addressed and they should get appropriate laps or have to adjust their hp level and tires to be more realistic with their speed. I think we should address the reasons that car is so much faster than the field and then the speed can be reeled in. I personally would like them to have laps and race against them, even as the car stands now. I like the David vs Goliath story of the beating the professional Riley team with a car I work on all my free weekends in my own garage by myself.  I like the idea of being ahead of them, doing the math, knowing how fast they are going vs us and needing to push like heck to stay ahead in the end, if we can. I am all for that! I just am not for a simple vpi increase that really does nothing in end as it does not fix the route cause problem.

Welcome to our world. We 100% know we are penalized by fuel in every single race. We drive our asses off to keep the car out there, we doggedly watch strategy to save laps. Sometimes it works. Other times we lose to 150 hp Miatas. But no matter what, it makes for an exciting race. And that's how the system is supposed to work.

Looking forward to racing you Troy, and I know you feel the same. See you in the schoolyard, three o'clock high...

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9 hours ago, red0 said:

 

IIRC I was the one to first suggest the TBird value increase. The Tbird was undervalued then, and is undervalued now. 

 

Like I said, this will be interesting as Tyler seems to think he can still kick my a$$ if I was at 600 points or given a 10 lap lead:

E. Tyler Pedersen

  • E. Tyler Pedersen
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Ron, Kids for Life Racing had Sebring 2018 in hand by laps, but they broke so it's been proven it's a competitive car. 

 

I don't think there is a conspiracy theory going on as you realize. I feel the TAC, Mike and Tech have done a great job analyzing the values and items to make sure everything is in line with lap times and the potentials of the cars. 

 

I'd be more than happy to give you 100 points back and come race Gingerman or even Road America against our E30. 

 

But that was back when points kind of mattered and back when I paid 20 points for a power steering cooler that others got for free, back when I was not allowed a lightened flywheel but Miata's got them for free, back when the Vette was lowered 350 points, back when Ray's "fastest car in the series" big tank car didn't get an increase, back when a TBird deserved 100 point increase because it led Tyler by half a lap, (laps happened with yellow flag luck).  I will pass on that but curious to see if it is double dipped again.

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14 hours ago, Snorman said:

Based on what?

I completely disagree. This is a thinly veiled attempt to VPI the car out of being competitive before it even has a chance. V8 Tbird is a 160 hp car only available with an automatic (and I'm sure Tech won't let it have any tranny it wants) and a solid rear axle in a 3500# chassis. But yeah, undervalued, lol.

 


Comparisons to other more widely run fox platforms with much less fuel. As more things have become "free" or "open" fuel capacity has become even more important. The goal would certainly not be to VPI the car out of being competitive but to avoid fuel rich cars with high hp potential in capable platforms from having too much of an advantage. 

 

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