VIDEO USED TO PENALIZE A TEAM FOR PUY

[ASenna]

 

Rule 5.5.1.2 States - No protest will be accepted for missed or non-calls by corner worker or track/event officials such as a passing under yellow.  Yet at Pitt Race RBANK car #195 was penalized based on video turned in by SHUT UP RACING #234.  

Rule 5.5.2.1.1. States - Valid driving protests penalties may result in penalty laps, a time penalty, or disqualification of the car, at the discretion of the Event Director.

Can the BOD please provide clarity on this topic.   

Can video be used to penalize another team for a missed call? 

Does Rule 5.5.2.1.1. Invalidate Rule 5.5.1.2.

Does "Discretion of the Event Director" mean negating any and all rules associated with this series?

If the answer is yes to these questions, then the combination of these two rules adds to the erosion of trust between the series and its' members.    

[Jer]

What was the penalty for?  I've seen video footage used to figure out who was at fault on collisions before.  And yes, the rules are clear as mud.

[Slugworks Paul]

I think they seem pretty clear, those two rules are mutually exclusive.

5.5.1.2 says 'no protest will be accepted' and 5.5.2.1.1 says 'Valid protests..'

If the protest isn't accepted it cannot be a valid protest. However, it does seem as though event directors have a lot of leniency to make judgement calls that supersede the rules.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Slugworks Paul

[B-Rad]

I don't have the answer. But I can share our experience with this at PittRace this past weekend.

 

We were live streaming from the car and the ChampCar broadcast crew was using our feed. They saw us get passed under yellow on camera but couldn't make out which car it was. The race director came to me for more information about the offending car (which I couldn't provide). End of story. 

[Snorman]

46 minutes ago, B-Rad said:

I don't have the answer. But I can share our experience with this at PittRace this past weekend.

 

We were live streaming from the car and the ChampCar broadcast crew was using our feed. They saw us get passed under yellow on camera but couldn't make out which car it was. The race director came to me for more information about the offending car (which I couldn't provide). End of story. 

Wow. 
I'm impartial on this. But interesting how aggressive of a stance the series took on it. 

[B-Rad]

3 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Wow. 
I'm impartial on this. But interesting how aggressive of a stance the series took on it. 

While it seems aggressive, there is still a lot of PUY that slips through the cracks. Heck, we were passed by 2 cars under the RED flag on Saturday. Not sure if that was rectified.

[Snorman]

12 minutes ago, B-Rad said:

While it seems aggressive, there is still a lot of PUY that slips through the cracks. Heck, we were passed by 2 cars under the RED flag on Saturday. Not sure if that was rectified.

I actually don't even know how that happens, lol. 

[Snake]

If you had video proof proving you didn't deserve a penalty would you want the ED to see that and give you your laps back?   This works both ways.    Don't pass under yellow and you don't have to worry.    

[ASenna]

1 hour ago, Snake said:

Don't pass under yellow and you don't have to worry.    

noted...and just like telling your driver not to hit the wall...it's implied and understood but sometimes $#!^ happens but does that mean we've turned into hall monitors and tattletales?  My question to the BOD was to provide clarity to the members and slow the growing criticism coming from ambiguous calls made by event directors using an unclear rule set.  

[MoparBoyy]

9 minutes ago, ASenna said:

My question to the BOD was to provide clarity to the members and slow the growing criticism coming from ambiguous calls made by event directors using an unclear rule set.  

 

its not ambiguous, a pass under yellow is not allowed.

[ShutupJack]

30 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

its not ambiguous, a pass under yellow is not allowed.

In fact there was a paddock wide announcement that morning specifically about passing under yellow. 

I accidently passed a car under yellow earlier in the day and made it a point to wave it back by me since I was well aware that it was against the rules.

Being called tattle tales in a member policed series is laughable and any experienced team should know better.

[Andrew D Johnson]

2 hours ago, Snake said:

If you had video proof proving you didn't deserve a penalty would you want the ED to see that and give you your laps back?   This works both ways.    Don't pass under yellow and you don't have to worry.    

AT Nelson CYR got a PUY and then used video to prove his innocence. When Premium Dudes got a PUY later that day and wanted to use video evidence to get our laps back as the pass occurred after the yellow while the driver could see the next manned station with no flag. The ED said she would not allow us to present the video evidence. 

Things are not applied consistently team to team. 

[ASenna]

22 minutes ago, ShutupJack said:

since I was well aware that it was against the rules.

...are you also aware it's against the rules to submit video to penalize another team for a missed call?  If not, please see Rule 5.5.1.2.  

 

[E. Tyler Pedersen]

26 minutes ago, red0 said:

AT Nelson CYR got a PUY and then used video to prove his innocence. When Premium Dudes got a PUY later that day and wanted to use video evidence to get our laps back as the pass occurred after the yellow while the driver could see the next manned station with no flag. The ED said she would not allow us to present the video evidence. 

Things are not applied consistently team to team. 

 

Happened again at Indy on  Saturday. I didnt go and show video even though I had it because of this experience. 

 

I want all rules applied equally so I will not be doing this until it is consistent. We will just need to make up more laps if it happens again. 

 

 

[Fitsbain]

1 hour ago, red0 said:

Things are not applied consistently team to team. 

This could be said about a lot of things. But things will get better if we all play by the same rules, and that will have to start with all of the various race directors, but will also hinge on the various track rules.

[QuaTTro]

3 hours ago, ShutupJack said:

In fact there was a paddock wide announcement that morning specifically about passing under yellow. 

I accidently passed a car under yellow earlier in the day and made it a point to wave it back by me since I was well aware that it was against the rules.

Being called tattle tales in a member policed series is laughable and any experienced team should know better.

why did you wave it back by?  That just creates a second pass under yellow.  It's about safety more than track position, and I doubt the flag stations notice (or care) if you give the person their position back.  They just call in a car for passing if they see it (regardless of reason)

[TimS]

Let them by when the green flag drops to be nice. Especially if you aren’t caught by timing and scoring

[Snake]

3 hours ago, red0 said:

AT Nelson CYR got a PUY and then used video to prove his innocence. When Premium Dudes got a PUY later that day and wanted to use video evidence to get our laps back as the pass occurred after the yellow while the driver could see the next manned station with no flag. The ED said she would not allow us to present the video evidence. 

Things are not applied consistently team to team. 

 

Sounds like an issue with the ED, not the rules.

[Snorman]

30 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

why did you wave it back by?  That just creates a second pass under yellow.  It's about safety more than track position, and I doubt the flag stations notice (or care) if you give the person their position back.  They just call in a car for passing if they see it (regardless of reason)

I would never take that pass back. Ever. 

[Team Infiniti]

16 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I would never take that pass back. Ever. 

Coming from dirt track its proper etiquette to "give it back" Our first road race was a eye opener when we were flagged for doing so.... That was the last time.

 

[Snorman]

2 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Coming from dirt track its proper etiquette to "give it back" Our first road race was a eye opener when we were flagged for doing so.... That was the last time.

 

I've waved off drivers who PUY'd then tried to slow down and give it back. No thanks. 

[Andrew D Johnson]

18 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I've waved off drivers who PUY'd then tried to slow down and give it back. No thanks. 

I have come to a stop on the track causing a very dangerous situation when someone tried to wave me by. They kept slowing down and I slowed along with them, I don't know at what point I am allowed to pass under yellow without getting a black flag. 

The last time I got a PUY black was when I passed what I thought was a disabled car. They were driving 10 mph with no cars in front of them.

[the5]

1 hour ago, Snorman said:

I've waved off drivers who PUY'd then tried to slow down and give it back. No thanks. 

One of my drivers did this While Leading the 24 hour, MY DRIVER was penalized even though the the other drover "waved" him by. 

 

I make a statement to never take back any postions under yellow and tell my drivers the same. 

[ShutupJack]

I stand corrected then about the waving the car by.  It all happened in half a second and the other driver seemed to appreciate it.

As far as using video to levy a penalty, seemed like the system worked in our case. 

It's a shame that video is not always being allowed when it seems to be the most honest and consistent way to make a case.  That should be addressed by the higher ups.

[Snake]

1 hour ago, red0 said:

The last time I got a PUY black was when I passed what I thought was a disabled car. They were driving 10 mph with no cars in front of them.

 

 

That car should have gotten a black flag.