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VIDEO USED TO PENALIZE A TEAM FOR PUY


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3 minutes ago, ShutupJack said:

I stand corrected then about the waving the car by.  It all happened in half a second and the other driver seemed to appreciate it.

As far as using video to levy a penalty, seemed like the system worked in our case. 

It's a shame that video is not always being allowed when it seems to be the most honest and consistent way to make a case.  That should be addressed by the higher ups.

The majority of PUY don’t get called in.

 

I can see a situation where a never ending stream of teams come to race control to report PUYs and it becomes a bad situation. More teams start running live stream so that they can report the other teams. 
 

I like corner called PUYs with no protesting or reporting. If you get called, oh well, if you don’t, lucky you. 

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I think a lot of this comes down to not fully manning flag stations, and then only one inexperienced person at the ones that are manned.  Having raced where flagging groups like Lake Erie Communications man the corner stations with 2 (and sometimes more) trained flagging and often rescue trained personnel, there seems to be much more consistent flagging.  Also having flagged (very little), there's a LOT going on for one person to see everything and get the right car number and call it in and watch everything else happening.

 

Having said that, yes, rules regarding video need to be it is allowed or it is not - to prosecute or to prove innocence.  And no, I don't want to go the route of "other series" that require a camera and to have video available for race officials on demand.

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1 hour ago, MoparBoyy said:

I think if you have video proof it should be allowed. end of story.

How much time can race control allocate to looking through someone’s video to see if a call was incorrect? They need to verify that this video is from the current race, record time of the infraction (hopefully the corner called it in right away and time was recorded), sync up the video to that time, find the corner in question in the video and watch the video leading up to and following that corner. Then watch several laps before and several after to make sure that the time wasn’t off by a couple minutes.

 

You can’t just trust a team when they walk up and say “here’s our proof, no PUY” and they only show you 10 seconds of video. Verification is a time consuming process and will be a major time sink if teams are aware that video can get your laps back and start providing regularly. 

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3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

How much time can race control allocate to looking through someone’s video to see if a call was incorrect? They need to verify that this video is from the current race, record time of the infraction (hopefully the corner called it in right away and time was recorded), sync up the video to that time, find the corner in question in the video and watch the video leading up to and following that corner. Then watch several laps before and several after to make sure that the time wasn’t off by a couple minutes.

 

You can’t just trust a team when they walk up and say “here’s our proof, no PUY” and they only show you 10 seconds of video. Verification is a time consuming process and will be a major time sink if teams are aware that video can get your laps back and start providing regularly. 

 

i dont see an issue with that.    However, i will say this too.  Race Director needs to look at how it effected the race.  If a backmarker passed the #5 overall car under yellow, then 1 lap later it goes green and basically nothing happened to the 5th place car, honestly nothing should be done.   This happened at PBIR when I went to race control about a team who was cheating the 5 min stop issue.  They tried to beat us out of pit lane by almost 50 seconds on a 5 min stop.   By the time I went up to race control, it didn't matter anymore.  Our team was leading the offending team and pulling away every lap and it was close to the end of the race.  I told race control "this has no effect on my race, but it should be noted as they are repeat offenders"

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23 hours ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

i dont see an issue with that.    However, i will say this too.  Race Director needs to look at how it effected the race.  If a backmarker passed the #5 overall car under yellow, then 1 lap later it goes green and basically nothing happened to the 5th place car, honestly nothing should be done.   This happened at PBIR when I went to race control about a team who was cheating the 5 min stop issue.  They tried to beat us out of pit lane by almost 50 seconds on a 5 min stop.   By the time I went up to race control, it didn't matter anymore.  Our team was leading the offending team and pulling away every lap and it was close to the end of the race.  I told race control "this has no effect on my race, but it should be noted as they are repeat offenders"

 

So agreed on not de-railing the thread. But for full disclosure, after it was brought to our attention we looked back at the stops in the Timing system and our numbers showed that the pit stops in question were good. They were close, very close, but good. However, we are thankful for teams that notice discrepancies and bring them to our attention and we did monitor the team in question more closely.

 

Dana

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On 10/6/2020 at 2:22 PM, TimS said:

Let them by when the green flag drops to be nice. Especially if you aren’t caught by timing and scoring

I've done this before- not that I PUY, but it does happen.  Much better that trying to let them by again under yellow.

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So I don't usually weigh in, but I think I might be able to help some here.

 

First, yes the rule is clear that a video alone cannot be used as the basis to file a protest. Every track is different in how flagging is conducted and has different technologies. Indy could replay the entire race from every corner, other tracks, not so much. So bottom line, we take reports from the corner workers, it's the only consistent way we can manage races. 

 

Now, with that said, I (and all the Race Directors) are always happy to talk to teams, including looking at video. Any incoming information helps us run the event better, and that means a better product for you. At the very least we are able to focus in on a potentially dangerous situation (whether PUY or anything else) and monitor it. 

 

Now, after an incident, or a penalty, we are always happy to look at video and if we made a mistake we can own it and fix it (if that's possible). I have personally had a situation where a team was black flagged for PUY, they later brought me video that showed they had not passed. The time matched up, and the corner station had reported the wrong car. So I thanked them and I fixed it.

 

At Indy I had a team called for PUY. They claimed they had video showing they had not. They showed me their video, and it wasn't the area or time we had called them for, I showed them the track video where they clearly had passed. They understood, probably not happy with their driver, but they understood. 

 

The bottom line for me is that my customers felt that I had taken the time to honestly look at their information. Even if you don't like my decision, I want you to know that will try to use every option I can to arrive at the best decision possible.

 

A couple last notes. First, never give the pass back. It creates a passing in the incident area and it's dangerous, never give it back. Second, tell your drivers the proper flag speeds, Standing Yellow is 70% race speed, Waving is 50% race speed. Tell your new drivers to keep the appropriate speeds.

 

Thanks, Dana

 

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1 hour ago, DuncanDana said:

Second, tell your drivers the proper flag speeds, Standing Yellow is 70% race speed, Waving is 50% race speed. Tell your new drivers to keep the appropriate speeds.

Really??? I don’t think the pace car even goes 50% speed. Like at Gingerman laps are around 1:50, but I don’t think we were seeing ~4 minute pace car laps... perhaps I remembered wrong.
 

Assuming you are talking about a local waving yellow, 50% is really really slow and I think would cause additional wrecks should a driver actually slow that much. I normally zip through waving yellows (unless there is a blind hill or blind turn or currently passing the EV / stranded car on track) at what I would guess to be 80% of race pace but (and I’m sure many would agree here) it feels like a crawl compared to 100% pace. 80% is so far within the limits of the brakes / tires / reaction time I think it satisfies the requirements (as I understand them) of “exercise caution, dangerous situation ahead, prepare to slow further or take evasive action”.

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37 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Really??? I don’t think the pace car even goes 50% speed. Like at Gingerman laps are around 1:50, but I don’t think we were seeing ~4 minute pace car laps... perhaps I remembered wrong.
 

Assuming you are talking about a local waving yellow, 50% is really really slow and I think would cause additional wrecks should a driver actually slow that much. I normally zip through waving yellows (unless there is a blind hill or blind turn or currently passing the EV / stranded car on track) at what I would guess to be 80% of race pace but (and I’m sure many would agree here) it feels like a crawl compared to 100% pace. 80% is so far within the limits of the brakes / tires / reaction time I think it satisfies the requirements (as I understand them) of “exercise caution, dangerous situation ahead, prepare to slow further or take evasive action”.

I agree with this. I've always felt it should be an effort/control sort of thing. 

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21 hours ago, enginerd said:

Really??? I don’t think the pace car even goes 50% speed. Like at Gingerman laps are around 1:50, but I don’t think we were seeing ~4 minute pace car laps... perhaps I remembered wrong.
 

Assuming you are talking about a local waving yellow, 50% is really really slow and I think would cause additional wrecks should a driver actually slow that much. I normally zip through waving yellows (unless there is a blind hill or blind turn or currently passing the EV / stranded car on track) at what I would guess to be 80% of race pace but (and I’m sure many would agree here) it feels like a crawl compared to 100% pace. 80% is so far within the limits of the brakes / tires / reaction time I think it satisfies the requirements (as I understand them) of “exercise caution, dangerous situation ahead, prepare to slow further or take evasive action”.

 

I was the pace car driver that weekend. The tower gives me instructions on how fast to go. We slowed down the field to give the track clean up crews more time without traffic around them.
When Dana talked about about 70% and 50% speed, he was talking without a pace car. With a pace car, the pace car controls your speed.

I would love to do 70% race speed on track, and really enjoy the times that they let me loose.

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Bill, you've got my respect for the work and effort you put into this series but in this case I have to disagree.  This topic strikes at the heart of what should be the most important job of the BOD.  Ensuring the rules are applied and enforced consistently and fairly throughout the series

 

Allowing Event Directors, under the employ of the Series Chairman, to inconsistently and unfairly apply the rules "as they see fit" (quote from Chelsea) certain teams creates an environment of mistrust that fundamentally changes the way we, as members, look at the series.

 

I would like for the BOD to direct the Series Chairman to make a statement to the membership ensuring fairness in all aspects of the rules and technical regulations and insist that in the future the Event Directors are well versed in the entire rule set for Champcar.  

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17 hours ago, ASenna said:

Bill, you've got my respect for the work and effort you put into this series but in this case I have to disagree.  This topic strikes at the heart of what should be the most important job of the BOD.  Ensuring the rules are applied and enforced consistently and fairly throughout the series

 

Allowing Event Directors, under the employ of the Series Chairman, to inconsistently and unfairly apply the rules "as they see fit" (quote from Chelsea) certain teams creates an environment of mistrust that fundamentally changes the way we, as members, look at the series.

 

I would like for the BOD to direct the Series Chairman to make a statement to the membership ensuring fairness in all aspects of the rules and technical regulations and insist that in the future the Event Directors are well versed in the entire rule set for Champcar.  

 

I do agree with your statement.
The EDs and Mike don't read the forum. Send to info@champcar.org
 

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On 10/8/2020 at 12:09 PM, DuncanDana said:

Second, tell your drivers the proper flag speeds, Standing Yellow is 70% race speed, Waving is 50% race speed. Tell your new drivers to keep the appropriate speeds.

 

 

I think this is where the issue comes in.  I'll use the Pinto from COTA as an example:

50% of the pinto speed is actually slower than the pace car speed.  So the driver might feel like 'well they said 50%' but it should be 50% of the leaders pace, not 50% of YOUR pace.

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44 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Does it become a BoD issue if operations / event director says that it isn’t an issue?

Good question.

 

I believe there are bylaws in place that should be followed if any cog in the machine needs a closer look.

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