Jump to content

VIDEO USED TO PENALIZE A TEAM FOR PUY


Recommended Posts

What if-

 

We made all PUY incidents penalty laps. Each PUY is a lap or increases with incidents.  1st incident 1 lap - 2nd = 2 laps - 3rd = 3 laps- so on.  If it was very dangerous and bad then black flag, but most are not that.

 

Pros

It would have less cars coming into the pits and out and it should be safer.

It would be understood the penalty to be fair to all, laps. Sometimes you might loose half a lap, others a full lap.

It would be easy to get the lap back if video evidence is shown and an error is made. (the black E30 number 1XX I think says the corner worker)

 

Cons

Event director might look at more video

Event director would be adding laps to a bunch of cars, maybe 20-50 a race, but if they are sitting up there all day they might be a bit bored and want to do it.

Jimmy does not get to yell at people, but that can be a con depending on how you look at it.

 

How would it be told to the team? The Champcar officials on the pit road have radios and would just go and tell the team. Also, when Flagtronics come on board for all cars it should be able to tell the team and driver so the prior might not be needed.

 

What issues would this idea solve and what issues would it cause?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

What if-

 

We made all PUY incidents penalty laps. Each PUY is a lap or increases with incidents.  1st incident 1 lap - 2nd = 2 laps - 3rd = 3 laps- so on.  If it was very dangerous and bad then black flag, but most are not that.

 

Pros

It would have less cars coming into the pits and out and it should be safer.

It would be understood the penalty to be fair to all, laps. Sometimes you might loose half a lap, others a full lap.

It would be easy to get the lap back if video evidence is shown and an error is made. (the black E30 number 1XX I think says the corner worker)

 

Cons

Event director might look at more video

Event director would be adding laps to a bunch of cars, maybe 20-50 a race, but if they are sitting up there all day they might be a bit bored and want to do it.

Jimmy does not get to yell at people, but that can be a con depending on how you look at it.

 

How would it be told to the team? The Champcar officials on the pit road have radios and would just go and tell the team. Also, when Flagtronics come on board for all cars it should be able to tell the team and driver so the prior might not be needed.

 

What issues would this idea solve and what issues would it cause?

I think a big part of the black flag is telling a driver what they did wrong. Another part is penalizing THAT driver. Maybe it will cool his red mist, maybe it will make it worse. Losing track time is a good penalty for a driver, taking laps off the total is more disconnected. If he’s buzzing the safety vehicles you need to call him in right away to correct the behavior, deducting 4 laps isn’t going to do anything to make the situation safer. 

 

Also, lap times / track lengths vary.

 

Also, I think the % of calls that are wrong is extremely low. Changing the system to make it easier to give back an incorrect penalty is silly when it occurs so infrequently. 
 

(My small data set is 3 PUY black flags for my team where the driver said it didn’t happen but video review showed that it definitely did. And two more PUY caught on video that were not called in)

Edited by enginerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I think a big part of the black flag is telling a driver what they did wrong. Another part is penalizing THAT driver. Maybe it will cool his red mist, maybe it will make it worse. Losing track time is a good penalty for a driver, taking laps off the total is more disconnected. If he’s buzzing the safety vehicles you need to call him in right away to correct the behavior, deducting 4 laps isn’t going to do anything to make the situation safer. 

 

Also, lap times / track lengths vary.

 

Also, I think the % of calls that are wrong is extremely low. Changing the system to make it easier to give back an incorrect penalty is silly when it occurs so infrequently. 
 

(My small data set is 3 PUY black flags for my team where the driver said it didn’t happen but video review showed that it definitely did. And two more PUY caught on video that were not called in)

We have had only one PUY that was not a PUY at the start of a race at Road America. We were deep back, 80th or so, and the flagger pulled the flags in in their station, which means go, but when get to the next one they had not yet. I did not even call in green on the radio this time and he got the black flag. Our video evidence showed it, but how do you give back 1/2 to 3/4 of a lap so we were stuck with it since we did not lose a full lap. This would have solved it.

 

I do think what you describe are separate incidents. If a driver is aggressive and red mist when passing under yellow that is still called in, if someone is buzzing ev vehicles that is called in.  If a yellow comes out and a driver misses it and passes under yellow then a lap. I think that is almost all the incidents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

We have had only one PUY that was not a PUY at the start of a race at Road America. We were deep back, 80th or so, and the flagger pulled the flags in in their station, which means go, but when get to the next one they had not yet. I did not even call in green on the radio this time and he got the black flag. Our video evidence showed it, but how do you give back 1/2 to 3/4 of a lap so we were stuck with it since we did not lose a full lap. This would have solved it.

 

I do think what you describe are separate incidents. If a driver is aggressive and red mist when passing under yellow that is still called in, if someone is buzzing ev vehicles that is called in.  If a yellow comes out and a driver misses it and passes under yellow then a lap. I think that is almost all the incidents.

So in roughly 150 race days you have once had a bogus PUY that may have been refuted with video.
 

I see now your original post differentiated between PUY and more hazardous driving. 

 

I see another con now: following the race. If a car doesn’t come down pit lane and sit, and suddenly laps are deducted, how are teams to know what is going on? How do we know this wasn’t a timing error or transponder issue which gets corrected and laps added back later? When you see an opponent roll into pit lane off-schedule you know what is going on. And +/- laps are not documented well in speedhive. Long laps are. 

 

Regarding adding laps back in general (whether simply deducted originally or to make up for time sitting) this is problematic for race strategy.. if you’re leading in the last 2 hours and then 3rd place gets credited 2 laps out of nowhere it can really screw things up. This happened to RBank at Charlotte when the timing loop in pit lane wasn’t working well and in the last two hours the e46 was given 3 laps and the pacing strat that RBank was using suddenly put them too far behind to catch up. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

So in roughly 150 race days you have once had a bogus PUY that may have been refuted with video.
 

I see now your original post differentiated between PUY and more hazardous driving. 

 

I see another con now: following the race. If a car doesn’t come down pit lane and sit, and suddenly laps are deducted, how are teams to know what is going on? How do we know this wasn’t a timing error or transponder issue which gets corrected and laps added back later? When you see an opponent roll into pit lane off-schedule you know what is going on. And +/- laps are not documented well in speedhive. Long laps are. 

 

Regarding adding laps back in general (whether simply deducted originally or to make up for time sitting) this is problematic for race strategy.. if you’re leading in the last 2 hours and then 3rd place gets credited 2 laps out of nowhere it can really screw things up. This happened to RBank at Charlotte when the timing loop in pit lane wasn’t working well and in the last two hours the e46 was given 3 laps and the pacing strat that RBank was using suddenly put them too far behind to catch up. 

As a team we have had around 6-8 blag flags, all for PUY, all were deserved except for the one.

 

Why would it happen after a race? Maybe PUY on the last lap? Good question on how would a competitor know they got a black flag.

 

Giving laps back can be hard if done late.  What if a time limit was giving from the time the lap was added to the time it needs to be addressed? Maybe 2 hours as you should pit every two hours to change drivers anyway, this is assuming the team only has in car video. Also, within the last two hours of a race it needs to be within 15 minutes or not at all.

 

I do not think there is a perfect system to fix it all, but I do think, we as a group, could come up with a better system to be fair and fix some of the false PUY incidents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

As a team we have had around 6-8 blag flags, all for PUY, all were deserved except for the one.

 

Why would it happen after a race? Maybe PUY on the last lap? Good question on how would a competitor know they got a black flag.

 

Giving laps back can be hard if done late.  What if a time limit was giving from the time the lap was added to the time it needs to be addressed? Maybe 2 hours as you should pit every two hours to change drivers anyway, this is assuming the team only has in car video. Also, within the last two hours of a race it needs to be within 15 minutes or not at all.

 

I do not think there is a perfect system to fix it all, but I do think, we as a group, could come up with a better system to be fair and fix some of the false PUY incidents.

“Following the race” meant “while I am tracking the race on race monitor and trying to see where my competitors are and how fast we need to be driving”, didn’t mean “after the race is over”.


 

I think the perfect solution is taking a step back and recognizing that:

 

ChampCar is for amateurs. Don’t get your panties in a wad about what you think is a bad call because more often than not, it isn’t a bad call. If it is a bad call, live with it. poop happens, flaggers are human, take your penalty and hope it doesn’t happen again.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

“Following the race” meant “while I am tracking the race on race monitor and trying to see where my competitors are and how fast we need to be driving”, didn’t mean “after the race is over”.


 

I think the perfect solution is taking a step back and recognizing that:

 

ChampCar is for amateurs. Don’t get your panties in a wad about what you think is a bad call because more often than not, it isn’t a bad call. If it is a bad call, live with it. poop happens, flaggers are human, take your penalty and hope it doesn’t happen again.

I don't wanna like this, but....  I like this.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

The official word from up high is that corner workers will call in passing under yellows. 
Video will not be used. 
ChampCar.live will not be used.
 

Thanks Bill. Do you know if video will be used to overturn a blown call?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no instant replay in auto racing. If a call is made and it's wrong we just have to move on. Next time you might get a break. The corner workers are human just like us and will not always get it right. The best thing to do is not pass under yellow and when there is a time that you might think you might be in the wrong don't take the risk.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Years of racing with different organizations I/we have never been penalized for PUY. The situation where I should have and maybe did not knowing was at Barber with ChampCar. The track lighting and the flag stations were horribly out of sync. Track yellow lights go off, hammer down. Come to screeching halt after passing 5-6 cars due to being able to see the flag station still holding out yellow. This happened multiple times each day causing some very scary unsafe conditions. Reported to RD with a response of "we know".   We were instructed to obey the flags and not the lights. Then the lights should not have been used. I have accepted all of this and moved on.

 Points brought up here I have never thought about. Namely giving the spot back.  During several of the above situations I hit the brakes realizing I was one of the few going for race speed and that the yellow flag was out. Dropping back to flag speed several cars went pass me. I would have always thought giving the spot back would be the right thing to do. Never thought about them getting penalized for PUY. Now thinking about the unsafe situation that creates I will keep the spot. Several of the other occurrences of this I basically got a good jump on the yellow going to green. 

 The mentioned light/flag situation is probably a one event occurrence. The question for PUY that can be applied to other events is keeping the spot the standard acceptable rule or guideline for most or all racing organizations? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

The official word from up high is that corner workers will call in passing under yellows. 
Video will not be used. 
ChampCar.live will not be used.
 

 Bill, thank you for relaying the good news.  To those BOD members and others that subsequently responded, thank you. 

Your comments and committment to the fair application of the rules is appreciated.

Until then,

ASenna

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, ASenna said:

Your comments and committment to the fair application of the rules is appreciated.

 

You want to explain how a corner worker makes a mistake, calls in the wrong car, car has video evidence that they were not involved. is "fair application of the rules"?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

You want to explain how a corner worker makes a mistake, calls in the wrong car, car has video evidence that they were not involved. is "fair application of the rules"?

 

Just let it go. This guys still arguing about his pass under yellow and it's been weeks now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bringing video evidence to a ED is not a protest unless you fill at paperwork and pay the $50.   I don't believe that was done here correct?  Therefore, 5.5.1.2 would not apply since there was no protest.   The ED has complete control and discretion during the race.    IF a protest is filed, then the ED has a set of procedures/rules they must follow.    The integrity of the race should be a priority of the series and it's employees, however that is accomplished.   

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MoparBoyy said:

So corner worker makes a mistake.  you have video proving they made mistake, champcar is going to side with the corner worker?

 

LULZ.

ChampCar just isn’t going to look at the video. Corner worker makes a call, ChampCar enforces penalty related to the call. End of story.

 

I think it’s a good policy. Find me at Road America and I’ll try to persuade you (from a distance) to see it like I do. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

ChampCar just isn’t going to look at the video. Corner worker makes a call, ChampCar enforces penalty related to the call. End of story.

 

I think it’s a good policy. Find me at Road America and I’ll try to persuade you (from a distance) to see it like I do. 

 

There is nothing wrong with getting a bad call overturned.  I see the point of not using video to prove a non-call.   Those don't have to be exclusive to each other.  I think @E. Tyler Pedersen has been in that situation recently.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
On 10/15/2020 at 6:22 AM, MoparBoyy said:

 

You want to explain how a corner worker makes a mistake, calls in the wrong car, car has video evidence that they were not involved. is "fair application of the rules"?

 

It's the same for everyone, and it doesn't add cost by forcing teams to run cameras for competitive advantage. At NL Tyler's team was able to get a bad call reversed with video, but the ED refused to even watch our video. No that is BS, this new ruling of no video makes it the same for everyone. 

 

On 10/15/2020 at 6:37 AM, shutupracing said:

 

Just let it go. This guys still arguing about his pass under yellow and it's been weeks now.


ASenna didn't pass anyone under yellow. His stint got ruined though. An hour into his stint he got black flagged from the apparent PUY from a prior stint brought to the ED with video evidence (despite the BCCR stating that is not allowed). Then he got sent to a penalty box filled with shrapnel and had a tire blow out a few turns after being released from the penalty box. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People are making arguments for bad calls being upheld?!  If there's proof a corner worker made a mistake, we can't overturn it because you might have to buy a $50 action camera (you don't have to, but you might consider it), so let's just get it wrong.  

 

Man would it bring me great joy if the Riley Corvette has all is points reworked next week and its a competitive race all day with them running second.  Then with 1.5 hrs to go the leader gets a call for minor contact.  Champcar live shows the incident and it's not the leading car that made contact. Leading car captain brings three camera angles that shows they didn't make contact.  Video from Road America track cams shows no contact.  But the corner worker saw it and the black flag gives Riley another win.

 

Bringing missed calls to the directors all race is one thing, but disallowing fixing a mistake is laughably amateurish. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, macheesy said:

People are making arguments for bad calls being upheld?!  If there's proof a corner worker made a mistake, we can't overturn it because you might have to buy a $50 action camera (you don't have to, but you might consider it), so let's just get it wrong.

 

Bringing missed calls to the directors all race is one thing, but disallowing fixing a mistake is laughably amateurish. 

NFL doesn’t allow replay over turning of calls (holding / pass interference / etc.)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, enginerd said:

NFL doesn’t allow replay over turning of calls (holding / pass interference / etc.)

But they'll often do a booth review and/or multiple officials on the field will confer. 

In the case of a PUY, it's a single corner worker who could make a mistake. It doesn't require multiple corner workers to see it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, enginerd said:

NFL doesn’t allow replay over turning of calls (holding / pass interference / etc.)


Yes they do. They have challenges, booth reviews, etc. Is the NFL an entry level football organization? A better question is why they don't have replay in HS football......They don't because of cost and staffing and keeping it equal for all schools. 

spacer.png

Edited by red0
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, red0 said:


Yes they do. They have challenges, booth reviews, etc. Is the NFL an entry level football organization? A better question is why they don't have replay in HS football......They don't because of cost and staffing and keeping it equal for all schools. 

spacer.png

They allow challenges on completed pass, out of bounds, Interception, spot of the ball when player was tackled, etc. etc. 

they do not have challenges for calls such as pass interference, holding, etc. 

 

Good point about entry level / high school comparison. Resources definitely prevent ChampCar from fairly reviewing all calls.

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...