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Brake Pad Selection


mgoblue06
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27 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

Swapping the brakes on our s10 to a C5 setup. Picked up some power stop slotted and drilled rotors on clearance from Rock Auto, now for pad selection. We will have stock single piston RX7 FD calipers in the rear off our swap

 

What is everyone running? 

 

St-43?

Hawk Pads?

Carbotech?

Carbotech

Your results WILL vary, start somewhere and get a baseline, work from there.

 

 

Next rotor purchase, skip the drilled ones, experience in this series has shown the drill holes propagate cracks and slots can (otherwise harmlessly) increase wear. We run the cheapest Orilleys 2 year warranty blanks, so far they have given us new ones 3 times @ no charge.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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Just now, Team Infiniti said:

Carbotech

Your results WILL vary, start somewhere and get a baseline, work from there.

 

Next rotor purchase, skip the drilled ones, experience in this series has shown the drill holes propagate cracks and slots can (otherwise harmlessly) increase wear. We run the cheapest Orilleys 2 year warranty blanks, so far they have given us new ones 3 times @ no charge.

 

Should I return the drilled and get some slotted ones locally with a 2 year warranty? lol

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2 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

 

Should I return the drilled and get some slotted ones locally with a 2 year warranty? lol

Let some others chime in before deciding, there are many variables, heck, there are a dozen+ compounds to choose from between porterfield, Hawk & carbotech.

 

Many run the st43, we never figured out how to make those work.

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Let some others chime in before deciding, there are many variables, heck, there are a dozen+ compounds to choose from between porterfield, Hawk & carbotech.

 

Many run the st43, we never figured out how to make those work.

We could never get the st43 to work either (terrible modulation for us).  Porterfield R4-E is what we normally run.  The fronts will last right around 8 hours at Road America on our #2800lb FWD car.  If they however get heat soak (such as sitting in the sin-bin holding the brakes)...the compound will degrade quickly and will only last about 6 hours. 😉  Otherwise they have nice initial bite (I think it's a bit too aggressive but our other drivers like it...so I go with it) and very good modulation characteristics.  Keep in mind your tire choice has a big influence on braking capabilities.

Edited by TKRiggs
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20 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Yikes, Im pissed if our custom thickness carbotech don't last 30hrs @ $300+ but they are the only thing that works till we go wilwood (may never happen on this car)

I'm not thrilled...but they aren't $300 for a set (but still...we're going through 2 front sets a weekend).  With that said...we will be looking to change depending on what we can do with calipers next year.  It may just be a thicker pad (which we get custom made already).  Also, Road America is an extreme case (3 high energy braking zones).  At Indy in 2019...we still had a third of the pad left after 10 hours.

Edited by TKRiggs
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Up until this year we ran the c5 set up on our camaro, now wilwood 4 piston. Carbotech xp8 pads work very well but get them pre bedded or bed them before using. This is critical and you will get an entire race weekend out of one set of pads. Do not properly bed them and you will get one day per set of pads. They do not overpower our 200TW tires, have good modulation and release, and fade resistance. Ditch those drilled and slotted rotors, they won’t make it til noon on day 1. Centric high carbon rotors have served us very well, as well as other high quality plain rotors. Not expensive and last a whole weekend, and more. They are directional so get the right and the left correct.  Now about cooling. The C5 setup needs very good cooling to live. We made backing plates that fit very tight to the rotor and run a single 3” hose ducted off the front bumper, this would be the minimum. Two 3” cooling hoses would be better.  Do everything you can to increase airflow in the wheel well area. Any question or want pics of what we did just ask. 

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12 hours ago, kevind43 said:

Up until this year we ran the c5 set up on our camaro, now wilwood 4 piston. Carbotech xp8 pads work very well but get them pre bedded or bed them before using. This is critical and you will get an entire race weekend out of one set of pads. Do not properly bed them and you will get one day per set of pads. They do not overpower our 200TW tires, have good modulation and release, and fade resistance. Ditch those drilled and slotted rotors, they won’t make it til noon on day 1. Centric high carbon rotors have served us very well, as well as other high quality plain rotors. Not expensive and last a whole weekend, and more. They are directional so get the right and the left correct.  Now about cooling. The C5 setup needs very good cooling to live. We made backing plates that fit very tight to the rotor and run a single 3” hose ducted off the front bumper, this would be the minimum. Two 3” cooling hoses would be better.  Do everything you can to increase airflow in the wheel well area. Any question or want pics of what we did just ask. 

 

That would be awesome to see pics!

 

We have a fog light on each side of the bumper we could use for an inlet of air directed to each rotor

 

Looks like I'm returning the drilled and slotted rotors today lol

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Just want to reiterate the bedding in part mentioned.

 

 

I see and hear a lot of people that have poor brake wear.  Every single person either has something wrong with the system OR did not bed in the pads properly.

 

Bedded in pads will give you 2 to 3 times more life from the pads.

 

Ya gotta get them slowly up to to working temps and then let them cool for like 12 hours before using them.

 

 

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Standard Rotors for 38 bucks and ST-43 pads.

 

Another thing we do is sand new rotors. Not a lot but we go over them with 400 grit on a pneumatic palm sander till they feel glass smooth. (Old timer that worked for Penske told us to try it.) Seems our pad transfer is more even and our brake wear has been better.

 

I bed them by doing 2 loops around our subdivision building heat slowly buy 35-5 slows then pull it on to the county road and make 2 long slows from 60-5, then 2 hard slows from 60-5 then 2 race paced slows 80-5 then one more lap around the subdivision to let cool some, park it.

 

Ive always done old pads with new rotors too, and new pads on used rotors. Seems stupid but it has worked for us.

 

We get well over 24hrs on a set of brakes if we do things correctly.

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50 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just want to reiterate the bedding in part mentioned.

 

 

I see and hear a lot of people that have poor brake wear.  Every single person either has something wrong with the system OR did not bed in the pads properly.

 

Bedded in pads will give you 2 to 3 times more life from the pads.

 

Ya gotta get them slowly up to to working temps and then let them cool for like 12 hours before using them.

 

 

 

Why do they have to cool for 12 hours? Once they are cold they are cold?

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We have g-loc pads and basic replacement centric brand I think high carbon rotors. Not sure on the pad specific compound. But we can easily do 32hrs on a set of pads and we have not touched the rotors this year. We have air ducts to the front hubs but nothing for the rear.  We are only stopping a 2000lb mid engine car. 

 

The g-loc have great pad feel. You easy ride just above the point of lockup. I could easily out brake most other cars at the VIR 24. 

 

The g-loc come pre bedded. 

 

Edit: we use the R10 on the front and R12 on the rear.

Edited by dwendel
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Really good responses from everyone.  Glad to see so many brake myths finally being put to bed.

 

My only pad recommendation is to start with the same compound front and rear.  Then see if you need more/less rear brake depending on lockup/ABS.  If you run a higher friction front compound setup on a car that is well biased, all you are doing is forcing the front brakes to do more than its share of the work and elevating heat and increasing wear.  We see this A LOT on the consumer side.  Some cars might even benefit from a higher rear friction pad, but it all depends on the car and how its set up.

 

Some other things to consider:

If you haven't already, remove the backing/splash plates behind the discs.  You may want to keep some areas of it to shield ball joints, etc, depending on the application, but open up the air pathway to the ID of the disc as much as possible.  This provides the disc all the air available and eliminates any reflective heat radiating off the OE plate.  I typically don't recommend duct sealing plates at the disc any more unless you have a very high volume of air being routed to it (large and/or multiple hoses).  My suggestion is to get some air into the wheel well behind the tire with a duct and generally directed/deflected at the entire brake system.  Many OE sportscars now have this sort of brake cooling setup.  As mentioned, DO NOT blow cold air directly onto any portion the disc face (hose up next to the disc), the temperature differential created will lead to a cracked/broken disc very quickly.

 

I also suggest making an effort to take brake temperature data (Longacre makes a reasonably priced probe kit).  Don't assume.  You won't really know what works/doesn't if you don't have before/after temperature data to back it up.  If you add/make a change in ducting, try it on one side and see if there is a difference after a few hard laps.  Temperature data will also allow you to be sure your pads are operating in their best temperature window.

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BP30s.

 

I'm running a 2250lb FWD with stock GLI brake rotors on all 4 (288mm F, 256mm R), stock GLI rears calipers, and Wilwood 4 pistons up front.  I tried WIlwood BP-20, 40, and Polymatrix As, Hawk Blues and HPS, and some Porterfield (I don't remember).  All worked the same, lasted about 7 hours.  Except the Wilwood A.  They last forever, but they are sooooo touchy.  Bill swears by them, but I think you have to get them much hotter than I could on my car to give them any feel at all.  The only one that worked for me is the BP30s.  They last 14 hours plus (at Sebring, PBIR, and Daytona), and they have good feel.  Although at this point, if they felt like pressing avocados against the rotors under braking, as long as they lasted and stopped the car, I'd run them.

 

I run the Wilwood BP20s in the rear, and I change them when I feel like they've been on too long every year or two.

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4 hours ago, Robmink said:

BP30s.

 

I'm running a 2250lb FWD with stock GLI brake rotors on all 4 (288mm F, 256mm R), stock GLI rears calipers, and Wilwood 4 pistons up front.  I tried WIlwood BP-20, 40, and Polymatrix As, Hawk Blues and HPS, and some Porterfield (I don't remember).  All worked the same, lasted about 7 hours.  Except the Wilwood A.  They last forever, but they are sooooo touchy.  Bill swears by them, but I think you have to get them much hotter than I could on my car to give them any feel at all.  The only one that worked for me is the BP30s.  They last 14 hours plus (at Sebring, PBIR, and Daytona), and they have good feel.  Although at this point, if they felt like pressing avocados against the rotors under braking, as long as they lasted and stopped the car, I'd run them.

 

I run the Wilwood BP20s in the rear, and I change them when I feel like they've been on too long every year or two.

Did you bed those other pads in properly? 

 

Hawk pads are especially sensitive to that.

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Frankly, I don't remember.  It is quite possible that we did a little bedding, but not near enough or not properly.  I can say that we run the BP30 straight out of the box.  I live in a family community and I just don't feel comfortable blasting around the streets slamming on the brakes.  I might try getting a set of BP30s from Wilwood pre-bedded.  See if that changes anything.

 

I tried the inexpensive rotor deal, I think I bought them at Advance.  They looked just fine out of the box, but always cracked and looked awful after the race.  Somehow I just couldn't walk back in and demand replacements after what I had done to them, so I switched to buying Bosch rotors.  So far, so good.

Edited by Robmink
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On 10/11/2020 at 12:40 PM, mgoblue06 said:

Swapping the brakes on our s10 to a C5 setup. Picked up some power stop slotted and drilled rotors on clearance from Rock Auto, now for pad selection. We will have stock single piston RX7 FD calipers in the rear off our swap

 

What is everyone running? 

 

St-43?

Hawk Pads?

Carbotech?

I think the wise thing for this type of racing is NOT to use drilled and slotted, standard blanks are what we use and what the guys at bigbrakupgrade.com told us when we converted to C5/6 on out Trans Am. We couldn't find the ST43's so we called Summit and they sent us a set of Wilwood pads with a similar compound. They work great.  We ran Hawks on the stock set-up...blacks. They didn't wear too bad but they were cracked after 4 weekends.  

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1 hour ago, Robmink said:

Frankly, I don't remember.  It is quite possible that we did a little bedding, but not near enough or not properly.  I can say that we run the BP30 straight out of the box.  I live in a family community and I just don't feel comfortable blasting around the streets slamming on the brakes.  I might try getting a set of BP30s from Wilwood pre-bedded.  See if that changes anything.

 

I tried the inexpensive rotor deal, I think I bought them at Advance.  They looked just fine out of the box, but always cracked and looked awful after the race.  Somehow I just couldn't walk back in and demand replacements after what I had done to them, so I switched to buying Bosch rotors.  So far, so good.

What we do is have a spare pair of brand new pads and tires.

 

In practice we run the new pads to bed them in and shakedown the car.  Do about 5 to 10 laps bedding in tires and pads.  Then, we take them off and run old tires and pads for the rest of practice.

 

If you don't do practice, there are other benefits that are probably even more important that you are missing (pressures, alignment, tire temps).

 

If you can't do practice, take a race that maybe you have an issue and are out of contention.  Do the same thing.  Bed in pads, scrub in tires, work on race setup, etc.

 

Bedding in pads and tires on the street is damn near impossible.  They need to get hot enough to almost have brake fade (or at least reduced braking ability).

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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Agree, agree, agree with all you said.  Time, lack of practice days here in the SE, needing driver training more than incremental adjustments in car trim, exhaustion, never actually being in contention (180hp FWD mostly stock suspension class C Jetta kinda makes that the reality!), too much beer the night before, etc.

 

I want the car to live and keep making loops, keep my drivers from causing any issues (I try!), and enjoy doing something so utterly ridiculous as racing cars.  Once I have the car living and driver training part down, I can think about fine tuning tire pressures, alignment, etc.

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We have the C5 breaks on our C4.  We run porterfield break pads https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/ .  you can reach out to them and tell them your combo and what you are doing (endurance racing) and they will help you select the correct pads. We run these pads on stock replacement rotors.   

 

We get one race out of rotors and almost 2 races out of pads. 

 

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I have run ST-43’s, ST-45’s, and ST-47’s for about 7 or 8 years now. I have bought them pre bedded, bedded then myself, and just slapped them in and gone racing. I have seen zero difference so I just bed them in if I get time or just put them in and go.  I run a rotor that’s what’s on sale from advance or car quest.  
 

The thing a lot of people miss is the condition of calipers. If they are stiff, rebuild them or replace them. That seems to have more impact on variability of wear. 
 

I am not arguing what others have found, if it works for them it works for them. But nothing is gospel you read on here, people just passing along what has worked for them.

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