wvumtnbkr 7,441 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 I appreciate all the work that went into this! The red line version is very nice to have! Onto the meat of the discussion... I noticed a certain cars vpi went up to 300pts. Radiators are now free (more free stuff). The aero section was defined much more clearly. There are lots of little changes that makes the rules easier to understand. However, it does seem like we keep lowering values of items. I really wish that would stop. Thanks to all who worked on this! 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
333 Kinkle 75 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! One question Bill. How does the VPI weight work? Is this table only used for engine swaps? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins 3,451 Posted October 17, 2020 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, 333 Kinkle said: The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! One question Bill. How does the VPI weight work? Is this table only used for engine swaps? That is correct. It’s used in the swap formula only. The official way to calculate swap values is to use the website calculator function. The csv file is provided as a option for someone who wants to compare many different potential swaps using a spreadsheet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck 2,558 Posted October 17, 2020 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said: I appreciate all the work that went into this! The red line version is very nice to have! Onto the meat of the discussion... I noticed a certain cars vpi went up to 300pts. Radiators are now free (more free stuff). The aero section was defined much more clearly. There are lots of little changes that makes the rules easier to understand. However, it does seem like we keep lowering values of items. I really wish that would stop. Thanks to all who worked on this! Radiators are not free and I feel that most aluminum radiators cost more than stock Auto Zone replacements, so + 30 for a lot of folks that were paying 10 points for under $300 radiators. Bring recipes to prove it or + 30. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Ray Franck said: Radiators are not free and I feel that most aluminum radiators cost more than stock Auto Zone replacements, so + 30 for a lot of folks that were paying 10 points for under $300 radiators. Bring recipes to prove it or + 30. In a large bowl, combine the beef, egg, onion, milk and bread OR cracker crumbs. Season with salt and pepper to taste and place in a lightly greased 5x9 inch loaf pan, OR form into a loaf and place in a lightly greased 9x13 inch baking dish. Step 3 In a separate small bowl, combine the brown sugar, mustard and ketchup. Mix well and pour over the meatloaf. Step 4 Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 1 hour. 11 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,441 Posted October 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ray Franck said: Radiators are not free and I feel that most aluminum radiators cost more than stock Auto Zone replacements, so + 30 for a lot of folks that were paying 10 points for under $300 radiators. Bring recipes to prove it or + 30. I guess from my perspective I can find all sorts of aluminum radiators for 99$ on eBay. I guess there would be some cars with a cheaper radiator at the local flaps, but not many. I can see that there would be some teams that went with a "nicer" rad and now need to switch or take points. However, those teams are just now going to be forced to buy a cheaper eBay radiator for 100$ for no real reason to save 30 pts. This allows them to save the pts they used to spend on the aluminum radiator. From my perspective, this rule basically means teams need to buy a new radiator and get free points. Link to 100$ radiator that could handle the cooling of any champcar engine just as an example that could be modified below: https://www.ebay.com/itm/274494053475 Link below for a stock e30 radiator at AutoZone (picked because it's most popular car) https://www.autozone.com/cooling-heating-and-climate-control/radiator/bmw/325i Edit to add: I assume that teams can use the highest price they find at AutoZone, Napa, oreilly for their car... not the cheapest. Edited October 17, 2020 by wvumtnbkr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 But my on tbe shelf $1800 Tilton clutch and flywheel is free. Does that include the hydraulic release bearing? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 513 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 For our car autozone radiator is $180 and Mazda seems to be $280. Our aftermarket radiator was $299 when we bought it, but with a 15% blackfriday deal I might be able to get it down I will see what tech says about that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,441 Posted October 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, turbogrill said: For our car autozone radiator is $180 and Mazda seems to be $280. Our aftermarket radiator was $299 when we bought it, but with a 15% blackfriday deal I might be able to get it down I will see what tech says about that or, if points are important to your build, just use a "hot rod" radiator and adapt it to work. Edit to add: I checked E30s, NA and NB miatas, rx7s, hondas (civic, etc), and C3 corvettes. all have "off the shelf" direct replacement aluminum radiators that are cheaper than those found as stock replacement at the FLAPS. I am SURE there are cars out there that cant use an off the shelf aluminum radiator for cheaper than a FLAPS price. However, as shown above, there are radiators that will cool any champcar for 100$ of less brand new if you fabricate the mounts and hoses. I guess my overall point is that teams can spend real money, not have any improvement to the car, and have more points to play with using this new rule. Before anybody says something about reliability.... Its an aluminum radiator. We havent had a failure with an ebay or hot rod (cheap) type radiator for at least 6 or 7 seasons. Edited October 17, 2020 by wvumtnbkr 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,441 Posted October 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 It IS nice to see that a great deal of the tech desk rulings have made it into the rules! Thank you VERY much for that! You are all doing a damn fine job and make this series awesome! Thanks @Huggy @Bill Strong @BOD (I know this isnt a linked name) @TAC (same) @Ray Franck @National Tech 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 4,607 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: You are all doing a damn fine job and make this series awesome! Thanks @Huggy @Bill Strong @BOD (I know this isnt a linked name) @TAC (same) @Ray Franck @National Tech Suck up...You must need to tech your car still. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck 2,558 Posted October 17, 2020 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 57 minutes ago, turbogrill said: For our car autozone radiator is $180 and Mazda seems to be $280. Our aftermarket radiator was $299 when we bought it, but with a 15% blackfriday deal I might be able to get it down I will see what tech says about that From my understanding the rule states national chain Auto Zone ,Advance, NAPA not dealer pricing so your $280 is not to be considered. Even if it was + 30 points for you unless your receipt is less than what a replacement from the chain is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 4,607 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ray Franck said: From my understanding the rule states national chain Auto Zone ,Advance, NAPA not dealer pricing so your $280 is not to be considered. Even if it was + 30 points for you unless your receipt is less than what a replacement from the chain is. I was just looking for the rule on where the price has to come from.. I didn't find it. Maybe I missed it. Can someone help me out Quote Link to post Share on other sites
veris 176 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 43 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: It IS nice to see that a great deal of the tech desk rulings have made it into the rules! Thank you VERY much for that! You are all doing a damn fine job and make this series awesome! Thanks @Huggy @Bill Strong @BOD (I know this isnt a linked name) @TAC (same) @Ray Franck @National Tech I 100% concur. I really like the direction. I do have a question though. There are a number of tech desk ruling that are not in the new rule book. What do we make of them? example: extended ball joints 5 points. I was expecting this to be codified and it wasn't. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TouchStone 25 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 ChampCar went through a lot of trouble getting rid of the 2x rule specifically to end this sort of pricing debate. Yet they left the radiator still affected by online prices. Kudos for making progress, I like the direction we’re moving but maybe next year we’ll truly move away from the confusing parts pricing rule and everyone searching for loopholes. 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jkrueger 46 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster. Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts. I want to put a better radiator on it to help cool the engine better. I take a 30 pt hit for that and that now costs me 3 laps. That radiator doesn’t make my car any faster to make up those 3 laps. We spend thousands of dollars to go to these races and that doesn’t include the cost of building the car. I want to run the entire weekend and not have to worry about overheating the car, starving the engine of oil, or overheating the engine oil/trans oil/ diff oil. Better radiators, oil pans and baffles, accusumps, oil coolers, etc only increase the chance that I get a good return for my investment and do nothing in making my car faster. Jc 11 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 I always liked the idea of ChampCars basically being Improved Touring level cars with aero and big tires. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 ...and on Facebook they have already discovered the open shocks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronh911 867 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 So many free parts. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 513 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ray Franck said: From my understanding the rule states national chain Auto Zone ,Advance, NAPA not dealer pricing so your $280 is not to be considered. Even if it was + 30 points for you unless your receipt is less than what a replacement from the chain is. You are right they mention autoparts stores. That's a little odd, I try to buy OEM. I think it should be OEM pricing. If my radiator broke I would probably buy a OEM radiator for $280 instead of a $180 from Autozone. I am sure the tech guys will use common sense and make sure the intent is followed. (Imagine if autozone had a sale same day as tech and you all of a sudden gets dinged 30pts. Or someone said they bought the radiator in japan when the currency was different) Edited October 18, 2020 by turbogrill 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ron_e 4,852 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Interesting to see old cars being phased out via radiators of all things. Can't get OE pricing for old cars "Radiator greater than OE cost: 30" so you use O'Reilly which means you can only use budget stuff versus the newer cars that use dealer prices to replace their radiators? Penske's for everybody. Heads are still confusing. 100 points for heads, 50 for valvetrain, is the valve train included or not included with the 100 point heads? Page 31, what is a cas? Does a rain light count as a brake light? No more than four brake lights are permitted but can have a rain light. Oil pan non-OE 25: Since 2009 we have had a non-OE pan with a sump that was made with steel for material points, I think 3 points. Is this still the case or has it jumped to 25? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 513 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ronh911 said: So many free parts. Whats all these new parts? You could do wilwood 4 pistons before, but pay points for the bracket. So the bracket is free (1pts). Rotors where 2x so you could fit a huge rotor if wanted. I guess you could do 2 piece rotor now? Its that the benefit? As for shocks you could do Penskes in 2020, now you can do Revalved Penskes? Or whats the difference? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ron_e said: Page 31, what is a cas? fixed for the next upload. thank you. "After the cage has cooled, ..." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,382 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, turbogrill said: I am sure the tech guys will use common sense and make sure the intent is followed. I would not be so sure. Especially since the membership (and even non-members) have beat up on these guys pretty hard over the past few weeks. They are paid volunteers. I am pretty certain they are going to follow every single misspelled word to a tee from now on. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 513 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Bill Strong said: I would not be so sure. Especially since the membership (and even non-members) have beat up on these guys pretty hard over the past few weeks. They are paid volunteers. I am pretty certain they are going to follow every single misspelled word to a tee from now on. Hmm....maybe I should buy an Autozone so I could control pricing and get a free radiator. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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