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5 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

There has never been a charge for alternators or starters. 
Until someone posted it to the tech Desk.
Hell, I used a non-Toyota MR2 starter and Alternator for years, even asked about it. Keeps the costs down when I can use cheap GM or Jspec ebay stuff. 

an alternator or starter (unless you have an automatic?) has never won or lost a race in our series. 

As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree .
 

My opinion.


Bill, are you saying that if it isn't specifically called out in the rules, it's open? I'd be careful spreading such a message.

Nobody is saying an alternator won a race, we just want to know what the rules are. How many more of the 'alternator unsaid rules' exist? If there's many more (seems like there's at least a handful more in the car in question) then yes, this certainly could add up to a measurable effect in race results.

I think giving special exemptions to people who already hold an experiential advantage, and aiming at a moving rules/enforcement target is taking the fun out of this.

Condren used to do a similar thing (remember that guy you used to rib on this here forum?) about saying we shouldn't be trying so hard to win.

Then people - like you - pushed the rules to the limit in order to accomplish that goal. I don't blame you. it is racing, after all - if we just wanted track time we'd all be doing HPDEs.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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3 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree .
 

My opinion.

Wasn't it you that told your tale of hard work and learning in over FIFTY RACES before you won a race? So you spent YEARS, and thousands of hours building your car, racing it, revising it and learning "just to win a bit of metal and no money". 

And now you're lecturing people to stop taking it so seriously. 🤣

Pot, meet kettle. 

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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Wasn't it you that told your tale of hard work and learning in over FIFTY RACES before you won a race? So you spent YEARS, and thousands of hours building your car, racing it, revising it and learning "just to win a bit of metal and no money". 

And now you're lecturing people to stop taking it so seriously. 🤣

Pot, meet kettle. 

Bingo.

It's all a bit (very) ironic coming from Bill (strong)

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30 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

See my response below.

 

 

This is the way that I think and the way that I vote in regards to items when petitions come up.  The VPI is set and the FPV is there so that teams can choose how they want to build their car.

 

 

 

So I think everyone forgets that Tech has the ability to assign points per the BCCR.  These are interpretations.  As I mentioned before earlier in this thread that the Tech Desk was created so there were no more emails going through the system and there was a check and balance with TAC, BOD, and Tech being on the same page.  

 

Here is what the BCCR states:

 

4.4. NON FIXED POINT VALUE PARTS 4.4.1. ALL non-stock components, parts, assemblies, or systems MUST be declared to Tech Inspection, noted in the vehicle Logbook, and declared and accounted for in the total points of the vehicle. 4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech. 4.4.3. Any vehicle found with missing (groundoff) or tampered part numbers on any part or component will be immediately re-classified as EC. 4.4.4. All point values assigned by Tech Inspection will be considered valid until ChampCar’s Board of Directors assigns a fixed point value.

 

So Tech has the ability to assign any value until it is voted on by the BOD.  I brought up the coolant overflow item and it wasn't added to the BCCR as a carry over from the Tech Desk.  I would have to look back to see if we had votes on it or not, but I thought it needed to be addressed to put in the BCCR.  Any item that is points or was allowed in the series due to an interpretation should be voted on by the BOD so then it can go into the BCCR.  
 

I will also bring this topic back up that I started last year:

 

 

Now we are an organization.  We need to do a better job all around and we have faults.  We all have day jobs except for two people in this company (Mike and Bill) as they do this full time.  Remember our tech inspectors are all volunteers.  Our event directors have other full times jobs.  We are doing this to provide great racing and be the best amateur series out there to help feed the drug of racing.  I am here to help make the organization better and try to continue to have parity within this organization. 

 

Feel free to reach out to me at any time to discuss any further. 

 

I guess zero is technically a point value...  even though it is right around the same wording that says there is no such thing as a free part.

 

I know you guys and gals are all doing an amazing job.  Especially when we take into consideration that these are volunteer positions.

 

However, saying no to most of these items would have made it a shed ton easier to manage and keep up with this monster.

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3 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

There has never been a charge for alternators or starters. 
Until someone posted it to the tech Desk.
Hell, I used a non-Toyota MR2 starter and Alternator for years, even asked about it. Keeps the costs down when I can use cheap GM or Jspec ebay stuff. 

an alternator or starter (unless you have an automatic?) has never won or lost a race in our series. 

As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree .
 

My opinion.

 

See, that's what annoys the rest of us. "You" get your buddies on the inside to approve something for yourself, and keep it secret so nobody else can take advantage of it. If that's the rule, put it in the book so everyone knows about it. The tech desk (and open log books) is finally exposing these secret backroom handshake deals that have "always been there"... for those that knew about them (i.e. those that asked for them)

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10 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

^ hey, its one of loudest instigators! 


Hey, it's the guy who gives endless press, claim, and adoration to big names that race in the series on your live stream, while paying less attention to the more average guys (like you!) who make up the vast constituency of the series, who this series is subsequently marketed towards!

And on the side, due to your connections you get side work with TLM, get to follow Riley's team around in pro race efforts, and more! (I am not against this, but please do not claim you are without bias)

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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Just so everybody is aware of this provision of the BCCR, which we used in 2018. 

5.2.3. Appeals: The Technical Inspector’s ruling may be appealed to the Event Director. The Event Director’s ruling is final for that event. You may appeal for future races to the ChampCar Board of Directors at Board@champcar.org.

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2 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

There has never been a charge for alternators or starters. 
Until someone posted it to the tech Desk.
Hell, I used a non-Toyota MR2 starter and Alternator for years, even asked about it. Keeps the costs down when I can use cheap GM or Jspec ebay stuff. 

an alternator or starter (unless you have an automatic?) has never won or lost a race in our series. 

As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree .
 

My opinion.


Bill, I asked a tech official about starters and alternators a couple of years ago and was told it was 10 points each.  And while I have never lost a finishing position due to a starter I have had to push start our car a bazillion times which gets really tiring after a while.  If these parts had been free for so long they should have been added to the FPV/free list.

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13 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

^ hey, its one of loudest instigators! 


Paul and his Slugworks teammates were one of the early supporters of the series, regional Chumpsters I think they were called. 

You mention Bill Riley was on the BOD, but hey Paul is just an Instigator. 

 

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18 minutes ago, red0 said:


Paul and his Slugworks teammates were one of the early supporters of the series, regional Chumpsters I think they were called. 

You mention Bill Riley was on the BOD, but hey Paul is just an Instigator. 

 

Yes - as a matter of fact we were able to get our car into the Mall of America rotunda to display the car and promote the series in the early days along with the BIR performance driving school folks.

It was awesome. I talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people that day and our car was more popular than almost any of the racing school cars because it was relatable to the general public ("hey, I used to have one of those!")

We also brought the car to a couple cars and coffee events, and my teammate and I also worked a couple other local/smaller conventions in 2010/2011

Thanks for recognizing that Andrew.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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3 hours ago, hcsi99 said:

I feel that if it's not in the BCCR then it shouldn't be an enforced rule.  The aluminum surge tank being points has been around as long as aluminum flywheels being points and that new ruling (flywheels are open) made it into the BCCR but nothing regarding the surge tanks?

 

Maybe everyone else already knew, but I have an unpublished tech desk ruling that says the Stewart high performance water pump (BMW M5X engine) is zero points.

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14 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Yes - as a matter of fact we were able to get our car into the Mall of America rotunda to display the car and promote the series in the early days along with the BIR performance driving school folks.

It was awesome. I talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people that day and our car was more popular than almost any of the racing school cars because it was relatable to the general public ("hey, I used to have one of those!")

We also brought the car to a couple cars and coffee events, and my teammate and I also worked a couple other local/smaller conventions in 2010/2011

Thanks for recognizing that Andrew.


F’n instigator. You probably have a commie flag tacked up inside your garage too. 

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 "4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value."

So aluminum coolant surge tanks have value but racing alternators don't?  It's inconsistencies like this are frustrating. When I built my car, I went with an aluminum surge tank because the factory plastic one would not longer work 

due to the roll cage coming through the firewall and going to the strut towers.  I picked it because it was a simple shape and simple to mount.   There seems to be more of a mechanical advantage to a race alternator than an aluminum coolant surge tank.  

I know the BOD and the Tech people work very hard and put a lot of time into this stuff.  This is only constructive criticism.  Thank you for all you do and for the improved updates to the BCCR.   

 

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Just as an aside, Bill Stong’s alternator / starter situation is pretty different. He ran a v6 minivan engine in a mid engine MR2. I would be very surprised if MR2 parts would work on that application. That’s why there has always been the “things to make it work” part of the swap paperwork, which could certainly include throttle cables, coolant hoses, etc. Starter & alternator would fall into that category, where, presumably the $$$ would go toward the (now $2500) swap price cap. (With my swap we used the starter / alternator that were bolted to the new engine when we pulled it from the yard. When we bought the engine, all those parts came along with it, and that price is what is recorded in the swap paperwork.)
 

It is an entirely different situation when you have a stock engine and are permitted (without points or any kind of restriction) to drop $$$ on a generic application motor sports alternator which shaves 5 lbs off the stock one that would have worked just fine.

Edited by enginerd
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Wow.   The instigator in Chief calls someone an instigator to instigate discussion that might deflect the issues that matter to the folks that pay the chief instigator a salary.   I think there are a couple loops I missed.    
 

non oe alternators should be points

 

non oeradiators should be points just not 30. 
 

Rules should not come about because someone somewhere wants to fit someone’s car into the framework. 
 

this is entertaining to watch 

Edited by JDChristianson
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I wish I would have known what a shitstorm alternators and starters would be, sorry guys.  So I've been educated on an advantage of a lightweight alternator is.  Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

 

BTW I have been in on those conversations about these items bearing points.  There was no backdoor deal with the Board, that i can assure you.  in fact we have a NOT unanimous vote on the IRS and the majority on the Board thought those items should be valued independently.  That will be like 120 points instead of 50.  So if you think there's a conspiracy to help Riley, well, you are wrong.  We are trying to do what's best for the series.  Always.  

Edited by Jer
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8 minutes ago, Jer said:

Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

 

They can be smaller, lighter, and more reliable.  No need for 300 pages.  It's really a simple concept - if it didn't come on the car from the factory, it's points.

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10 minutes ago, Jer said:

I wish I would have known what a shitstorm alternators and starters would be, sorry guys.  So I've been educated on an advantage of a lightweight alternator is.  Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

 

BTW I have been in on those conversations about these items bearing points.  There was no backdoor deal with the Board, that i can assure you.  in fact we have a NOT unanimous vote on the IRS and the majority on the Board thought those items should be valued independently.  That will be like 120 points instead of 50.  So if you think there's a conspiracy to help Riley, well, you are wrong.  We are trying to do what's best for the series.  Always.  

There are light weight starters. Everything should be points no matter how minimal nothing should be "Free". The rule book needs to be as many pages as necessary to properly describe a rule so it is understood with clarity.  

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14 minutes ago, Jer said:

I wish I would have known what a shitstorm alternators and starters would be, sorry guys.  So I've been educated on an advantage of a lightweight alternator is.  Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

 

BTW I have been in on those conversations about these items bearing points.  There was no backdoor deal with the Board, that i can assure you.  in fact we have a NOT unanimous vote on the IRS and the majority on the Board thought those items should be valued independently.  That will be like 120 points instead of 50.  So if you think there's a conspiracy to help Riley, well, you are wrong.  We are trying to do what's best for the series.  Always.  

Simple...  not stock component, not necessary for a swap, equals points.  This has been the rule for years basically.

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1 minute ago, hotrod said:

There are light weight starters. Everything should be points no matter how minimal nothing should be "Free". The rule book needs to be as many pages as necessary to properly describe a rule so it is understood with clarity.  

I agree with this...  with one caveat....  a nice 5 to 8 word mission statement aga8nst all rules are judged would work just as well.

 

Real tracks.  Real racing.  Real cheap.

 

If it doesn't follow that to a tee....  points.

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9 minutes ago, Jer said:

Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

I think the onus is on you (or whomever proposed it) to make a case that they should be exempt from the standard “if it isn’t stock, it’s points” situation and have a defined value of zero. 
 

I was fine having them not even listed in the rulebook, assuming that nobody would ever change away from stock (starters are much more application specific than alternators what with the flywheel meshing and mounting to the block and such). The once in a blue moon team that shows up with something like this 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Powermaster-9100-PowerMax-Mini-Starter-Chevy,229562.html?sku=2559100&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CjwKCAjwlbr8BRA0EiwAnt4MTmpm8sZ9Adjnyc9Y6yFoSRuDhthBGuR_ZUt8Pir138zjCMWPpZFIwRoC_wsQAvD_BwE
could get a value at tech.

 

Maybe you make a new category “engine accessory not otherwise listed: 5pts”

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21 minutes ago, Jer said:

I wish I would have known what a shitstorm alternators and starters would be, sorry guys.  So I've been educated on an advantage of a lightweight alternator is.  Anyone got those same concerns about starters?  I mean, they start the car.  That's it.  And they carry weight.  We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree.

 

BTW I have been in on those conversations about these items bearing points.  There was no backdoor deal with the Board, that i can assure you.  in fact we have a NOT unanimous vote on the IRS and the majority on the Board thought those items should be valued independently.  That will be like 120 points instead of 50.  So if you think there's a conspiracy to help Riley, well, you are wrong.  We are trying to do what's best for the series.  Always.  

I totally believe and know for a fact that tgere were no backroom deals for this for all of the board or TAC members I talk to (half of them at least)

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I think the onus is on you (or whomever proposed it) to make a case that they should be exempt from the standard “if it isn’t stock, it’s points” situation and have a defined value of zero. 
 

I was fine having them not even listed in the rulebook, assuming that nobody would ever change away from stock (starters are much more application specific than alternators what with the flywheel meshing and mounting to the block and such). The once in a blue moon team that shows up with something like this 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Powermaster-9100-PowerMax-Mini-Starter-Chevy,229562.html?sku=2559100&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CjwKCAjwlbr8BRA0EiwAnt4MTmpm8sZ9Adjnyc9Y6yFoSRuDhthBGuR_ZUt8Pir138zjCMWPpZFIwRoC_wsQAvD_BwE
could get a value at tech.

 

Maybe you make a new category “engine accessory not otherwise listed: 5pts”

A stock small block chevy starter is 21.7 pounds this mini starter is 7.25 pounds. Pretty cheap way to save 14.45 pounds. A starter that's not OE should be points.

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I don't really have a problem with the starters, as they don't offer any performance advantage whatsoever aside from a little bit of weight savings. And weight reduction is free, sooo....

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