hotrod 343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 1 minute ago, Snorman said: I don't really have a problem with the starters, as they don't offer any performance advantage whatsoever aside from a little bit of weight savings. And weight reduction is free, sooo.... 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points 9 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hotrod 343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 460 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 5 minutes ago, hotrod said: 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points Lightweight exhaust cost money that is free. Only non free weight item seems to be the hood. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 4,511 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 Starters and alternators that aren’t part of swap or original should be points. I have trouble understanding why it’s so hard to stick to the “there is no free part” rule it’s been there forever and keeps getting run over. 4 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hotrod 343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 (edited) 5 minutes ago, turbogrill said: Lightweight exhaust cost money that is free. Only non free weight item seems to be the hood. The only light weight exhaust would be Inconel and I don't think anyone around here could afford it. Stainless exhaust that will last is comparable to mild steel. And again free weight should be what you can remove from the car not purchase such as a hood. Edited October 20 by hotrod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoparBoyy 1,343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 12 minutes ago, hotrod said: 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points So non-oe batteries should be points too? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoparBoyy 1,343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 44 minutes ago, Jer said: So if you think there's a conspiracy to help Riley, well, you are wrong. We are trying to do what's best for the series. Always. I have never thought the BOD was making these backdoor deals... Tech is. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,385 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 1 minute ago, MoparBoyy said: I have never thought the BOD was making these backdoor deals... Tech is. What incentive do they have? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,385 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 (edited) 41 minutes ago, hotrod said: 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points Show me two starters that weigh 14 pounds different from each other. Hell, I've never even held a starter the WEIGHS 14 pounds! You guys are taking this too far. That's my opinion, feel free to vote me off next year, assuming I even run again. Edited October 20 by Jer 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoparBoyy 1,343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 3 minutes ago, Jer said: What incentive do they have? I honestly don't know, thats the more frustrating part. They should just enforce the rules equally and fairly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
333 Kinkle 50 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 5 hours ago, Bill Strong said: As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree . My opinion. Agian, WOW ladies and gentlemen. I agree with Bill Strong. It's a hobby. Champcar is an avenue for people like myself (amature) to come get the most for your money. For under $10k for equipment and $3k per race. I can do so many laps it will make me sick (2 person team - summer- no cool shirt). Please dont take the fun out of the series. Let's it be known for the best racing series for amature endurance racing. Take the lumps given and go racing as ladies and gentlemen. Oh, I get what the forum is. Its a place for racing therapy. Let it out here so when we do go racing. All is well. Deep thoughts. 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hotrod 343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 45 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said: So non-oe batteries should be points too? The cats out of the bag now with all that’s been given away but any part bought that is lighter should of been points. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hotrod 343 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 41 minutes ago, Jer said: Show me two starters that weigh 14 pounds different from each other. Hell, I've never even held a starter the WEIGHS 14 pounds! You guys are taking this too far. That's my opinion, feel free to vote me off next year, assuming I even run again. Jer, Engineered posted a SBC mini starter it’s a little over 7 pds. A stock SBC starter is over 21. Google it. It’s not going too far it’s just stating facts. Surly not all makes would’ve been this drastic but there are SBC’s running. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snorman 2,751 Posted October 20 Report Share Posted October 20 1 hour ago, hotrod said: 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points I don't know where you got 14# but the stock starter on all '92 and up 5.0's is an 8.5# OE mini-starter. Maybe if you're talking about old, '80's and earlier SBC's, but I don't think many starters over the last 20+ years weighed 20#. Again, I don't see a starter as an issue. An alternator has a number of benefits including a different pulley, so IMO that should be points. Clearly there is a reason to get out the pitchforks with the nonsense that's occurred over the last few months, but IMO this isn't one of those issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,073 Posted October 21 Author Report Share Posted October 21 38 minutes ago, Snorman said: I don't know where you got 14# but the stock starter on all '92 and up 5.0's is an 8.5# OE mini-starter. Maybe if you're talking about old, '80's and earlier SBC's, but I don't think many starters over the last 20+ years weighed 20#. Again, I don't see a starter as an issue. An alternator has a number of benefits including a different pulley, so IMO that should be points. Clearly there is a reason to get out the pitchforks with the nonsense that's occurred over the last few months, but IMO this isn't one of those issues. If there is no benefit, than nobody will do it. If people do it, there is a benefit. If it's not stock then it's points or captured in the swap rules. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snorman 2,751 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 7 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: If there is no benefit, than nobody will do it. If people do it, there is a benefit. If it's not stock then it's points or captured in the swap rules. I really don't care about the performance advantage of a starter somebody uses to start their race car. And as I stated, a pound or two isn't a concern to me. I would rather see people use a better starter to avoid 3 guys trying to bump start a car out of the box on a busy pit road. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,073 Posted October 21 Author Report Share Posted October 21 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Snorman said: I really don't care about the performance advantage of a starter somebody uses to start their race car. And as I stated, a pound or two isn't a concern to me. I would rather see people use a better starter to avoid 3 guys trying to bump start a car out of the box on a busy pit road. Me too. Isn't that a performance advantage? Lolzers. Don't care. I just don't want some people to have that advantage and others not. 2021 rules, we all get that advantage... so what the he'll am I talking about? Edit: we had a strong micro starter on our 1978 Malibu on a 350 sbc 10 years ago and tech didn't care... Edited October 21 by wvumtnbkr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxe30 100 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 I'm going to withhold my decision to start a new build project until I see the red-lined VPI tables, but my first pass doesn't make me want to start. I don't really see anything in the new rules (like say a P/W cap) that will prevent a similar situation as to the GBU one, and frankly, I feel like the rule system is trying to serve too many masters at this point with the resulting distortions causing more problems than they solve. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian 1,561 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 11 hours ago, Jer said: Show me two starters that weigh 14 pounds different from each other. Hell, I've never even held a starter the WEIGHS 14 pounds! You guys are taking this too far. That's my opinion, feel free to vote me off next year, assuming I even run again. This applies directly to the GBU corvette. Factory starters on Ford/Mopar/GM in the 60s and 70s were giant and heavy direct drive units. GM varied the design into the 90s application dependant. Then for the last few years of the legacy Small Block (Pre LS) they switched to a modern gear reduction starter. A few different companies make conversion units that put a gear reduction starter where a direct drive belongs. There's no reliability benefit, but you shave 10+ pounds off the nose, and you gain clearance for larger exhaust. It is a performance benefit, and I used to sell them to plenty of people looking for that extra .10th when I was working at the speed shop. If there was an easy and point free way to shave another 10-15# off our cars any of us would gladly do it, but at the moment, it's a bonus only available to old factory small block cars. Non OE starters should be points unless included/needed for a swap. 6 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hotrod 343 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 2 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said: This applies directly to the GBU corvette. Factory starters on Ford/Mopar/GM in the 60s and 70s were giant and heavy direct drive units. GM varied the design into the 90s application dependant. Then for the last few years of the legacy Small Block (Pre LS) they switched to a modern gear reduction starter. A few different companies make conversion units that put a gear reduction starter where a direct drive belongs. There's no reliability benefit, but you shave 10+ pounds off the nose, and you gain clearance for larger exhaust. It is a performance benefit, and I used to sell them to plenty of people looking for that extra .10th when I was working at the speed shop. If there was an easy and point free way to shave another 10-15# off our cars any of us would gladly do it, but at the moment, it's a bonus only available to old factory small block cars. Non OE starters should be points unless included/needed for a swap. This 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Members National Tech 187 Posted October 21 Members Report Share Posted October 21 15 hours ago, MoparBoyy said: I have never thought the BOD was making these backdoor deals... Tech is. What back door deal did tech make? Be specific. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
morganf 641 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 (edited) 3 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said: This applies directly to the GBU corvette. Factory starters on Ford/Mopar/GM in the 60s and 70s were giant and heavy direct drive units. GM varied the design into the 90s application dependant. Then for the last few years of the legacy Small Block (Pre LS) they switched to a modern gear reduction starter. A few different companies make conversion units that put a gear reduction starter where a direct drive belongs. There's no reliability benefit, but you shave 10+ pounds off the nose, and you gain clearance for larger exhaust. It is a performance benefit, and I used to sell them to plenty of people looking for that extra .10th when I was working at the speed shop. If there was an easy and point free way to shave another 10-15# off our cars any of us would gladly do it, but at the moment, it's a bonus only available to old factory small block cars. Non OE starters should be points unless included/needed for a swap. You could run no starter for free. Bump starts would be a pain but that would be the lightest and freeest performance gain. Edited October 21 by morganf 3 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
enginerd 6,412 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 13 minutes ago, morganf said: You could run no starter for free. Bump starts would be a pain but that would be the lightest and freeest performance gain. Have very strongly considered this... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,385 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 55 minutes ago, enginerd said: Have very strongly considered this... I'm too friggin old to push the car every time. We had to do this at a race and it SUCKED. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cowboys647 178 Posted October 21 Report Share Posted October 21 We are a team with 2 new builds and an existing build for 2021. We love Champcar for the great racing and tracks. That being said I am somewhat irked about how many free points are being handed out each year. I don’t want to have to go buy a new radiator, new alternator, new willwood big brake kits, etc. if these are free in terms of points, the best/fastest teams will typically (not always) take advantage and use them. This means I’m forced to do it as well if I want to be competitive and isn’t that what we all want. If reliability mods become free, I’ll have to buy an oil cooler, etc as well so we can push harder. We are putting an oil cooler on one of our cars and paying points for it. Will it make us faster, no. But it’ll be safer and more fun to drive without worrying about blowing up. /endrant 7 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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