Jer 3,411 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, cowboys647 said: We are a team with 2 new builds and an existing build for 2021. We love Champcar for the great racing and tracks. That being said I am somewhat irked about how many free points are being handed out each year. I don’t want to have to go buy a new radiator, new alternator, new willwood big brake kits, etc. if these are free in terms of points, the best/fastest teams will typically (not always) take advantage and use them. This means I’m forced to do it as well if I want to be competitive and isn’t that what we all want. If reliability mods become free, I’ll have to buy an oil cooler, etc as well so we can push harder. We are putting an oil cooler on one of our cars and paying points for it. Will it make us faster, no. But it’ll be safer and more fun to drive without worrying about blowing up. /endrant I use a stock rad and it's fine. I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds. Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed. if your car is stopping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. You don't have to spend a mint to compete. Edited October 22, 2020 by Jer 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Originalsterm 259 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Jer said: I use a stock rad and it's fine. I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds. Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed. if your car is topping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. You don't have to spend a mint to compete. So the teams with a ton of money are doing all of this extra work for fun? This doesn't help them win? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
QuaTTro 266 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jer said: I use a stock rad and it's fine. I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds. Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed. if your car is topping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. You don't have to spend a mint to compete. Agreed. We use an original junkyard radiator and alternator from 1990 with over 200k miles and stock brakes with race pads. We actually have a cheap ebay aluminum radiator in the garage but never install it because the stock one just keeps working. I know that we're lucky to have a car that stays reliable and cool in stock form, but the reality is that most of us can be competitive and have an awesome fun time at races without spending a ton of cash. We have no plans to upgrade those parts that are now free points because it's just wasted money and won't impact our overall results (usually top 10 overall). Most races cost us about $1000 per driver for two 4-hour stints across both days. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Originalsterm 259 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 8 hours ago, atxe30 said: I'm going to withhold my decision to start a new build project until I see the red-lined VPI tables, . Are we expecting updated VPI lists too? When are those due? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,318 Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Originalsterm said: Are we expecting updated VPI lists too? When are those due? Vpis are updated and out now. There just isn't a red line copy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Originalsterm 259 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: Vpis are updated and out now. There just isn't a red line copy. Darn, hoping my 318is went down 50 or so points... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Team Infiniti 15,385 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: Vpis are updated and out now. There just isn't a red line copy. Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see. I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Originalsterm 259 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 23 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see. I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. Still, it would be nice to know who got more to work with and if anyone got less (+/- in VPI). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Team Infiniti 15,385 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Originalsterm said: Still, it would be nice to know who got more to work with and if anyone got less (+/- in VPI). Go look, bill posted in the rules released thread. Unless you are worried about the guy bringing a europa... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Originalsterm 259 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Go look, bill posted in the rules released thread. Unless you are worried about the guy bringing a europa... Wow, there really wasn't much changed. I didn't realize that WAS the red lined edition. I'm more concerned someone is running an Isuzu Gemini, someone must have a magical unicorn swap in mind... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,411 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Originalsterm said: So the teams with a ton of money are doing all of this extra work for fun? This doesn't help them win? How many teams are doing all of the above? Maybe a couple. Again, let's not overreact. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,411 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 In my experience, boxing in the rad is way more important than which rad you run. i went back to stock to make room for a header in points and there was virtually no difference in running temps. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wvumtnbkr 7,318 Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see. I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. oh, cool. I didnt see that yet. THanks! It looks like the redline is for added stuff only maybe? The c3 corvette changed and it is not redlined. edit # 2: Just looked again and the redlines are only for added vehicles. THere are numerous changes.... Corvette, Maxima, etc... edit# 3: Mustang cobra now 550.... Edited October 21, 2020 by wvumtnbkr 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxe30 113 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see. I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. ultimately, everyone votes with their time first and wallet second i guess...... i'm pretty picky about both, time more than money to be sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 503 Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 16 hours ago, atxe30 said: ultimately, everyone votes with their time first and wallet second i guess...... i'm pretty picky about both, time more than money to be sure. Chumpcar rules are made for people with infinite amount of time but limited budget, this is something that is recurring and "spirit of the rules". (Examples: Corner balance without height adjustability 0pts, home made camber plates, repurpose material for fender flares etc, replace items before each race vs lifetime products, etc, etc ,etc) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Team Infiniti 15,385 Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, turbogrill said: replace items before each race vs lifetime products When using this point to talk about radiators, I wonder how many assume factory design is insufficient/unreliable vs trying it first to see what really works. Like @QuaTTro we ran the factory 15 yr old plastic/aluminum radiator 23,000 race miles on top of its 100,000+ street miles before a wall ended its cooling career, from there, a used parts store explorer plastic/aluminum rad went in, met the same fate a couple years later. Just saying. 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MMiskoe 258 Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 On 10/21/2020 at 12:24 PM, Jer said: You don't have to spend a mint to compete. Ah, therein lies the difference of opinion. You don't have to spend a mint to go race. However, If you want to be competitive, it is very hard to do so without spending at least as much as your fellow competitors. The trick is finding a race series where the spending amount fits in your comfort level and abilities. Want to be cheap? Watch TV, post on internet forums, race video games, volunteer to help out etc. Have more to spend? I think Formula 1 is the upper tier of the spending bracket. Champcar is somewhere between those two limits. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ABR-Glen 2,963 Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 6 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: When using this point to talk about radiators, I wonder how many assume factory design is insufficient/unreliable vs trying it first to see what really works. Just saying. I thought the same thing. We continued to run the radiator from the 4-cyl model for years after we swapped to the 6-cyl engine, which the internets would suggest would be an instant meltdown. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WastedAccounts 73 Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, MMiskoe said: If you want to be competitive Sort of true. I just put a 385 point Miata in into impound at PBIR with almost 8 minute pitstops. I am a little concerned it's about to become a 405 point Miata thanks to the unmarked and nameless radiator that came in the car when I bought it over three years ago though. Edited October 23, 2020 by WastedAccounts 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Magic 1,427 Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 On 10/20/2020 at 10:19 AM, enginerd said: Sure there is. You can make it lighter than stock by under sizing since you won’t have the need for sound system / HVAC / nav. Also use better / lighter materials / design. I bet there are some frictional loss advantages to be had as well. If you throw money at something, you can make it better. @Black Magic, what alternators do you have on the NASCARs? I bet it isn’t something you can buy from a NAPA. Most teams run a small high output alternator from Bosch. The cooling of them is a limiting factor, but only because they make a few hundred amps. Some teams also have been known to drive them by reversing the field coils in an intelligent way to make them a motor for short durations as a power booster at the end of races or qualifying on restrictor races. Given our power draw (very low on most cars) I would go smaller\lighter than these if I was gonna do aftermarket, more like motorcycle,atv size guts in a alternator housing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WTFover 9 Posted October 25, 2020 Report Share Posted October 25, 2020 So do I need to go out and buy an alternator off of a RZR with a dinner plate sized pulley on it or not? I think there are some serious oversights in the BCCR that need to be addressed ASAP. It's car building season. I'll take 5lb's off the nose of the Miata any chance I can get, but anyone who wants to be competitive will do the same, and then we are back at square 1, except everyone else has spent $1000 that could have gone to tires, brake pads, fuel or entry fees. I run a stock radiator, and it's fine for me, but I don't think 30 points is appropriate either. I'd love to put an aluminum radiator in the miata, not because I need one to keep the engine cool, but simply because the top inlet on the Miata is in the worst possible place, and I can't move it with a plastic end tank. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 7,219 Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 The Bod is meeting tomorrow night to discuss radiators. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins 3,367 Posted October 27, 2020 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 What about alternators? or maybe I can get real far ahead of myself and ask about metal coolant tanks... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbogrill 503 Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 Curious if anyone know of a team that would actually go faster with a fancy radiator? Would be interesting to see what setup up that would be and why ducting couldn't fix it. All the overheating I have heard about seems to be fixed ducting and/or hood vents 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jer 3,411 Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 We are going to discuss the radiator issue and likely change things tonight. It was not the intention of the Board to turn a 10 point 2 core radiator into a 30 point add. Stay tuned. 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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