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22 hours ago, cowboys647 said:

We are a team with 2 new builds and an existing build for 2021. We love Champcar for the great racing and tracks. That being said I am somewhat irked about how many free points are being handed out each year. I don’t want to have to go buy a new radiator, new alternator, new willwood big brake kits, etc. if these are free in terms of points, the best/fastest teams will typically (not always) take advantage and use them. This means I’m forced to do it as well if I want to be competitive and isn’t that what we all want. 
 

If reliability mods become free, I’ll have to buy an oil cooler, etc as well so we can push harder. We are putting an oil cooler on one of our cars and paying points for it. Will it make us faster, no. But it’ll be safer and more fun to drive without worrying about blowing up.  
 

/endrant 

I use a stock rad and it's fine.  I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds.  Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed.  if your car is stopping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. 

 

You don't have to spend a mint to compete.  

Edited by Jer
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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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15 minutes ago, Jer said:

I use a stock rad and it's fine.  I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds.  Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed.  if your car is topping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. 

 

You don't have to spend a mint to compete.  

So the teams with a ton of money are doing all of this extra work for fun?  This doesn't help them win?

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

I use a stock rad and it's fine.  I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds.  Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed.  if your car is topping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. 

 

You don't have to spend a mint to compete.  

Agreed.

 

We use an original junkyard radiator and alternator from 1990 with over 200k miles and stock brakes with race pads.  We actually have a cheap ebay aluminum radiator in the garage but never install it because the stock one just keeps working.  I know that we're lucky to have a car that stays reliable and cool in stock form, but the reality is that most of us can be competitive and have an awesome fun time at races without spending a ton of cash.  

 

We have no plans to upgrade those parts that are now free points because it's just wasted money and won't impact our overall results (usually top 10 overall).

 

Most races cost us about $1000 per driver for two 4-hour stints across both days.

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19 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Vpis are updated and out now.  There just isn't a red line copy.

Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see.

 

I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. 

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23 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see.

 

I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. 

Still, it would be nice to know who got more to work with and if anyone got less (+/- in VPI).

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17 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

Still, it would be nice to know who got more to work with and if anyone got less (+/- in VPI).

Go look, bill posted in the rules released thread.

 

Unless you are worried about the guy bringing a europa...

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3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Go look, bill posted in the rules released thread.

 

Unless you are worried about the guy bringing a europa...

Wow, there really wasn't much changed.  I didn't realize that WAS the red lined edition.

 

I'm more concerned someone is running an Isuzu Gemini, someone must have a magical unicorn swap in mind...

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3 hours ago, Originalsterm said:

So the teams with a ton of money are doing all of this extra work for fun?  This doesn't help them win?

How many teams are doing all of the above?  Maybe a couple.  Again, let's not overreact.  

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In my experience, boxing in the rad is way more important than which rad you run.  i went back to stock to make room for a header in points and there was virtually no difference in running temps.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see.

 

I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. 

oh, cool.  I didnt see that yet.  THanks!

 

It looks like the redline is for added stuff only maybe?  The c3 corvette changed and it is not redlined.

 

edit # 2: Just looked again and the redlines are only for added vehicles.  THere are numerous changes....  Corvette, Maxima, etc...

 

edit# 3: Mustang cobra now 550....

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Incorrect, @Bill Strong posted it and there is very little to see.

 

I find it hard to believe people are holding back on new builds pending something, the latest changes have caused no change of plans, heck, its given our new car more. 

 

ultimately, everyone votes with their time first and wallet second i guess......

 

i'm pretty picky about both, time more than money to be sure.

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16 hours ago, atxe30 said:

 

ultimately, everyone votes with their time first and wallet second i guess......

 

i'm pretty picky about both, time more than money to be sure.

 

Chumpcar rules are made for people with infinite amount of time but limited budget, this is something that is recurring and "spirit of the rules".

 

 

(Examples: Corner balance without height adjustability 0pts, home made camber plates, repurpose material for fender flares etc, replace items before each race vs lifetime products, etc, etc ,etc)

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

replace items before each race vs lifetime products

When using this point to talk about radiators, I wonder how many assume factory design is insufficient/unreliable vs trying it first to see what really works.

 

Like @QuaTTro we ran the factory 15 yr old plastic/aluminum radiator 23,000 race miles on top of its 100,000+ street miles before a wall ended its cooling career, from there, a used parts store explorer plastic/aluminum rad went in, met the same fate a couple years later.

 

Just saying.

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On 10/21/2020 at 12:24 PM, Jer said:

You don't have to spend a mint to compete.  

Ah, therein lies the difference of opinion.

 

You don't have to spend a mint to go race. 

 

However,

 

If you want to be competitive, it is very hard to do so without spending at least as much as your fellow competitors. 

 

 

The trick is finding a race series where the spending amount fits in your comfort level and abilities.  Want to be cheap?  Watch TV, post on internet forums, race video games, volunteer to help out etc.  Have more to spend?  I think Formula 1 is the upper tier of the spending bracket.  Champcar is somewhere between those two limits.

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6 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

When using this point to talk about radiators, I wonder how many assume factory design is insufficient/unreliable vs trying it first to see what really works.

 

Just saying.

 

I thought the same thing.

 

We continued to run the radiator from the 4-cyl model for years after we swapped to the 6-cyl engine, which the internets would suggest would be an instant meltdown. 

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19 hours ago, MMiskoe said:

If you want to be competitive

 

 

Sort of true. I just put a 385 point Miata in into impound at PBIR with almost 8 minute pitstops.

 

I am a little concerned it's about to become a 405 point Miata thanks to the unmarked and nameless radiator that came in the car when I bought it over three years ago though. 

Edited by WastedAccounts
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On 10/20/2020 at 10:19 AM, enginerd said:

Sure there is. You can make it lighter than stock by under sizing since you won’t have the need for sound system / HVAC / nav. Also use better / lighter materials / design. I bet there are some frictional loss advantages to be had as well. If you throw money at something, you can make it better. 
 

@Black Magic, what alternators do you have on the NASCARs? I bet it isn’t something you can buy from a NAPA. 

 

Most teams run a small high output alternator from Bosch. The cooling of them is a limiting factor, but only because they make a few hundred amps. 

 

Some teams also have been known to drive them by reversing the field coils in an intelligent way to make them a motor for short durations as a power booster at the end of races or qualifying on restrictor races. 

 

Given our power draw (very low on most cars) I would go smaller\lighter than these if I was gonna do aftermarket, more like motorcycle,atv size guts in a alternator housing. 

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So do I need to go out and buy an alternator off of a RZR with a dinner plate sized pulley on it or not?  I think there are some serious oversights in the BCCR that need to be addressed ASAP.  It's car building season.  I'll take 5lb's off the nose of the Miata any chance I can get, but anyone who wants to be competitive will do the same, and then we are back at square 1, except everyone else has spent $1000 that could have gone to tires, brake pads, fuel or entry fees.  I run a stock radiator, and it's fine for me, but I don't think 30 points is appropriate either.  I'd love to put an aluminum radiator in the miata, not because I need one to keep the engine cool, but simply because the top inlet on the Miata is in the worst possible place, and I can't move it with a plastic end tank.  

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Curious if anyone know of a team that would actually go faster with a fancy radiator?

 

Would be interesting to see what setup up that would be and why ducting couldn't fix it.

 

All the overheating I have heard about seems to be fixed ducting and/or hood vents

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We are going to discuss the radiator issue and likely change things tonight.  It was not the intention of the Board to turn a 10 point 2 core radiator into a 30 point add.  Stay tuned.  

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