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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate the feedback.  

 

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Here are the final changes from last night:

 

1) We could not agree on how to Structure the rad rule so we punted and it's back to 2020 rules for next year.  It was a slim majority voting to leave rules the same.

2) all adj shocks are 25 points.  The TAC recommended single adjustable being 10 points, but as a Board we believe that opens up to many possibilities for wealthy teams who could bring many different sets of shocks to a track and pick the best ones for that track.  That hurts backyard teams who can't afford to do that.  

3) We left clutches and flywheels open.  Too hard to check, unenforceable.  

 

There were some weight changes in the calculator that will be put back.  We are unsure how these phantom changes happened but looking into it.  

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13 minutes ago, Jer said:

There were some weight changes in the calculator that will be put back.  We are unsure how these phantom changes happened but looking into it.  

Which ones?

 

It was good to see that the Fiero swap "weight" finally agreed with the rule book.

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23 minutes ago, mender said:

Which ones?

 

It was good to see that the Fiero swap "weight" finally agreed with the rule book.

The Miata was phantom changed, noted by some Miata teams.  We are looking at the file uploaded because it was never brought up or approved, but we will get it fixed.  

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36 minutes ago, Jer said:

2) all adj shocks are 25 points.  The TAC recommended single adjustable being 10 points, but as a Board we believe that opens up to many possibilities for wealthy teams who could bring many different sets of shocks to a track and pick the best ones for that track.  That hurts backyard teams who can't afford to do that.  

 

Does this mean that height adjustable perches are 25pts per corner (100pts total vs the 40 currently) or is it referring to the shock itself being adjustable?

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Just now, greatwhite said:

 

Does this mean that height adjustable perches are 25pts per corner (100pts total vs the 40 currently) or is it referring to the shock itself being adjustable?

Shock itself.  Adjustable perches (coil overs) remain 10 points.   

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1 minute ago, greatwhite said:

 

Does this mean that height adjustable perches are 25pts per corner (100pts total vs the 40 currently) or is it referring to the shock itself being adjustable?

Shock itself.  Adjustable height perches are still 10 pts each.

 

Edit:  beaten to the punch.

 

Thanks jer!

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55 minutes ago, Jer said:

Here are the final changes from last night:

 

1) We could not agree on how to Structure the rad rule so we punted and it's back to 2020 rules for next year.  It was a slim majority voting to leave rules the same.

2) all adj shocks are 25 points.  The TAC recommended single adjustable being 10 points, but as a Board we believe that opens up to many possibilities for wealthy teams who could bring many different sets of shocks to a track and pick the best ones for that track.  That hurts backyard teams who can't afford to do that.  

3) We left clutches and flywheels open.  Too hard to check, unenforceable.  

 

There were some weight changes in the calculator that will be put back.  We are unsure how these phantom changes happened but looking into it.  

 

For 2021:

Non dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 10pts

Dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 25pts

Dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 25pts

 

Someone could argue that something like the budget friendly Koni (non height but dampening adjustable) should be 15 points or something.

 

 

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Just now, turbogrill said:

 

For 2021:

Non dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 10pts

Dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 25pts

Dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 25pts

 

Someone could argue that something like the budget friendly Koni (non height but dampening adjustable) should be 15 points or something.

 

 

We will not make rules for brands.  If we did, I'd start withRE71s haha.  

 

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7 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Someone could argue that something like the budget friendly Koni (non height but dampening adjustable) should be 15 points or something.

 

 

 

opens way too many doors.  I've seen non-height adjustable shocks with like 15 way adjustable dampening.

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1 minute ago, Jer said:

We will not make rules for brands.  If we did, I'd start withRE71s haha.  

 

 

haha! (ssschhhh or you will start WW3, internet will collapse)

 

There are plenty of shocks there are non height adjustable but dampening adjustable, but they are getting the same points as height and dampening adjustable. So you could argue that they should be a little less points.

 

I am not affected and don't really care but makes sense from a pure "rule alignment" perspective. 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

opens way too many doors.  I've seen non-height adjustable shocks with like 15 way adjustable dampening.

 

aha ok, I have only seen the crappy Tokico and Konis. Great alternatives when Bilsteins are sold out or not availible.

 

maybe a terrible idea.

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Here are the final changes from last night:

 

1) We could not agree on how to Structure the rad rule so we punted and it's back to 2020 rules for next year.  It was a slim majority voting to leave rules the same.

 

FFS!!!  I just went and spent $180 on an aluminum rad for next year and started fabbing the mounts up!!!!   I had a message typed yesterday ask you to keep this in mind but decided not to post it thinking they won't revert the rules back. 

 

Champcar was over a month late releasing the rules, then another month with these rules being allowed. Some of us were waiting to start building for next year.  Now they are not allowed again.  

 

I completely understand the issue with the change affecting guys already using rads getting an 20 point bump. I agree something needed to change for those cases. But you released an approved set of rules and are now clawing them back. This is the second time I've been burned by this poop in 2 months.

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56 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

For 2021:

Non dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 10pts

Dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 25pts

Dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 25pts

 

Someone could argue that something like the budget friendly Koni (non height but dampening adjustable) should be 15 points or something.

 

 

not quite.

 

• Shock absorbers / struts with damping/ rebound adjustment, 25 pts per corner

   This is JUST rebound/bound damping adjustment.  

• Adjustable spring perches, or any non-OE part or modification giving ride height adjustability 10-points per corner.

  This is JUST adjustable spring height/pre-load

 

They are separate items in FPV, so therefore additive.

 

Correct point walk per corner:

Non damping adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non damping adjustable, height adjustable = 10pts

Damping adjustable, non height adjustable = 25pts

Damping adjustable, height adjustable = 25pts + 10pts = 35 pts

 

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1 minute ago, NigelStu said:

not quite.

 

• Shock absorbers / struts with damping/ rebound adjustment, 25 pts per corner

   This is JUST rebound/bound damping adjustment.  

• Adjustable spring perches, or any non-OE part or modification giving ride height adjustability 10-points per corner.

  This is JUST adjustable spring height/pre-load

 

They are separate items in FPV, so therefore additive.

 

Correct point walk per corner:

Non damping adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non damping adjustable, height adjustable = 10pts

Damping adjustable, non height adjustable = 25pts

Damping adjustable, height adjustable = 25pts + 10pts = 35 pts

 

 

Aha!

 

Thanks that makes sense! 

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25 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

FFS!!!  I just went and spent $180 on an aluminum rad for next year and started fabbing the mounts up!!!!   I had a message typed yesterday ask you to keep this in mind but decided not to post it thinking they won't revert the rules back. 

 

Champcar was over a month late releasing the rules, then another month with these rules being allowed. Some of us were waiting to start building for next year.  Now they are not allowed again.  

 

I completely understand the issue with the change affecting guys already using rads getting an 20 point bump. I agree something needed to change for those cases. But you released an approved set of rules and are now clawing them back. This is the second time I've been burned by this poop in 2 months.

Should have asked around the forum first! I can tell you from experience that the rulebook normally changes between “official release” and Jan 1, especially when a rule is as unpopular as this radiator one has been. I don’t buy or change anything until the official rulebook has been out for 2 months... and some things (engine swap changes) I didn’t move on for a couple years!

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2 hours ago, Jer said:

Here are the final changes from last night:

 

1) We could not agree on how to Structure the rad rule so we punted and it's back to 2020 rules for next year.  It was a slim majority voting to leave rules the same.

2) all adj shocks are 25 points.  The TAC recommended single adjustable being 10 points, but as a Board we believe that opens up to many possibilities for wealthy teams who could bring many different sets of shocks to a track and pick the best ones for that track.  That hurts backyard teams who can't afford to do that.  

3) We left clutches and flywheels open.  Too hard to check, unenforceable.  

 

There were some weight changes in the calculator that will be put back.  We are unsure how these phantom changes happened but looking into it.  

I for one am glad we reverted radiator rule. I appreciate the BOD's flexibility and understanding.  I still disagree with associating a part's cost to points, but the 2021 change in the radiator rule was very unexpected and didn't serve any purpose except to create confusion.

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8 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Should have asked around the forum first! I can tell you from experience that the rulebook normally changes between “official release” and Jan 1, especially when a rule is as unpopular as this radiator one has been. I don’t buy or change anything until the official rulebook has been out for 2 months... and some things (engine swap changes) I didn’t move on for a couple years!

You realize how messed up that is right?   

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37 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

FFS!!!  I just went and spent $180 on an aluminum rad for next year and started fabbing the mounts up!!!!   I had a message typed yesterday ask you to keep this in mind but decided not to post it thinking they won't revert the rules back. 

 

Champcar was over a month late releasing the rules, then another month with these rules being allowed. Some of us were waiting to start building for next year.  Now they are not allowed again.  

 

I completely understand the issue with the change affecting guys already using rads getting an 20 point bump. I agree something needed to change for those cases. But you released an approved set of rules and are now clawing them back. This is the second time I've been burned by this poop in 2 months.

Sucks you were negatively impacted.  Are you unable to return it? I'm wondering if your situation was that you thought you could get a radiator upgrade for zero points or -10 points vs doing nothing to your car and getting a 20 point hit?

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I do not understand why they could make a simple rule. 

 

Alum rad the same size and capacity as stock is zero points.

 

Keep it simple and be done with it. It does not effect performance and gives people the option to get a cost effective radiator. I think the BOD really dropped the ball on this one and not sure why that could not be done to help the members out.

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49 minutes ago, TouchStone said:

Sucks you were negatively impacted.  Are you unable to return it? I'm wondering if your situation was that you thought you could get a radiator upgrade for zero points or -10 points vs doing nothing to your car and getting a 20 point hit?

I bent a Rad up at my last race.  It’s bent but not leaking.  I tore the car apart, and I’m redoing the whole front end. Making a proper duct to the rad etc.  My old rad worked fine but it is a plastic end tank style. 
I bought a $180 (CAD) so like $140usd aluminum rad. And I started making the mounts and ducting.  
I only did this because of it being 0 points.  Now I’ve wasted time and money on something that was already officially approved.  

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1 minute ago, petawawarace said:

I bent a Rad up at my last race.  It’s bent but not leaking.  I tore the car apart, and I’m redoing the whole front end. Making a proper duct to the rad etc.  My old rad worked fine but it is a plastic end tank style. 
I bought a $180 (CAD) so like $140usd aluminum rad. And I started making the mounts and ducting.  
I only did this because of it being 0 points.  Now I’ve wasted time and money on something that was already officially approved.  

Maybe if we speak up and want it then they will listen. I would hope so.

 

At least you can buy a stock radiator. I do not even have that option.

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