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1 minute ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Maybe if we speak up and want it then they will listen. I would hope so.

 

At least you can buy a stock radiator. I do not even have that option.

Agree, when we all complain on this forum its nice that we're at least being heard but we don't have much say into the exact direction ChampCar takes.

 

I plan to look into submitting petitions for 2022. I personally think that any radiator that only serves the purpose of cooling engine coolant should be open. If it has any secondary function or made of exotic material then 30 points (ie titanium or ducted to generate thrust).  

 

If a team decides to throw in a huge radiator it will more than likely just add unnecessary water weight, but that's up to them to figure out and refine.

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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I do not understand why they could make a simple rule. 

 

Alum rad the same size and capacity as stock is zero points.

 

Keep it simple and be done with it. It does not effect performance and gives people the option to get a cost effective radiator. I think the BOD really dropped the ball on this one and not sure why that could not be done to help the members out.


but now I can run a $4000 bosch motorsport alternator! Weeeeeeee!

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1 hour ago, TouchStone said:

Agree, when we all complain on this forum its nice that we're at least being heard but we don't have much say into the exact direction ChampCar takes.

 

I plan to look into submitting petitions for 2022. I personally think that any radiator that only serves the purpose of cooling engine coolant should be open. If it has any secondary function or made of exotic material then 30 points (ie titanium or ducted to generate thrust).  

 

If a team decides to throw in a huge radiator it will more than likely just add unnecessary water weight, but that's up to them to figure out and refine.

 

It would be interesting to see if a radiator makes you go 1 second faster a lap. (30pts is significant)

 

If headers becomes free you could argue that most teams would buy headers and it will drive up the cost with $500 for everyone. 

But if radiator becomes free, would everyone go out and shop new radiators? I wouldn't. 

 

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2 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

It would be interesting to see if a radiator makes you go 1 second faster a lap. (30pts is significant)

 

If headers becomes free you could argue that most teams would buy headers and it will drive up the cost with $500 for everyone. 

But if radiator becomes free, would everyone go out and shop new radiators? I wouldn't. 

 

I would buy a $300 mishimoto and be done with it.

As it stands, I buy a new $80 radiator once a year (stock replacement with plastic end tanks)

You do the math.. I don't see it being horribly impactful.

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5 hours ago, Jer said:

Here are the final changes from last night:

 

1) We could not agree on how to Structure the rad rule so we punted and it's back to 2020 rules for next year.  It was a slim majority voting to leave rules the same.

BOOOO!  I was looking forward to 10 points to use next year.  And our swap number went up a few points.  We will make it work though.  Thanks for clearing up the issues.

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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

It would be interesting to see if a radiator makes you go 1 second faster a lap. (30pts is significant)

 

If headers becomes free you could argue that most teams would buy headers and it will drive up the cost with $500 for everyone. 

But if radiator becomes free, would everyone go out and shop new radiators? I wouldn't. 

 

My thought is this. In the 10 years of racing CC and 10+ races a year I have not see a car overheat due to a stock radiator. I have seen them overheat from terrible boxing in of the radiator so an aftermarket one would do the same, but that was years and years ago. I think we have figured it out now so radiators are a non issue on performance. We run a stock rad and see the same exact temps all the time and even NCM when it was 107F that day. I see it as a cost saving item that could be addressed.

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In the context of everything else that is directly performance enhancing that is now free, this entire radiator mess is utterly absurd.  I've long been against anything improving reliability or performance being free as both impact results in endurance racing.  But things have gone so far down the road for allowed free modification or addition, it is stupid to have points for a basic radiator going in a stock location.  Why should things like non-adjustable racing shocks or multi-piston brake calipers be no points and a radiator be 10 or 30?  Quite disappointing that a topic like radiators was a rule adjustment when stuff like virtually useless lighting rules got no attention and the evolution away from the 2x rules, which was needed, have opened the door to potential far more expensive options...

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13 hours ago, oddcarnut said:

In the context of everything else that is directly performance enhancing that is now free, this entire radiator mess is utterly absurd.  I've long been against anything improving reliability or performance being free as both impact results in endurance racing.  But things have gone so far down the road for allowed free modification or addition, it is stupid to have points for a basic radiator going in a stock location.  Why should things like non-adjustable racing shocks or multi-piston brake calipers be no points and a radiator be 10 or 30?  Quite disappointing that a topic like radiators was a rule adjustment when stuff like virtually useless lighting rules got no attention and the evolution away from the 2x rules, which was needed, have opened the door to potential far more expensive options...

We put the rad rule back to 2020 rules.  

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Going back to 2020 rule actually adds points for us as the all aluminum aftermarket in our car is a lot less expensive than the stock plastic/aluminum OE equivalent from NAPA.  So the proposed 2021 change would have helped us.  Points under either rule for a radiator that isn't silly expensive seems nuts with all the other free performance enhancing items now allowed.

 

Alas the days of this being a series for low cost cars with limited prep as it was a decade ago when we raced at Rockingham are long gone....

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1 hour ago, oddcarnut said:

Going back to 2020 rule actually adds points for us as the all aluminum aftermarket in our car is a lot less expensive than the stock plastic/aluminum OE equivalent from NAPA.  So the proposed 2021 change would have helped us.  Points under either rule for a radiator that isn't silly expensive seems nuts with all the other free performance enhancing items now allowed.

 

Alas the days of this being a series for low cost cars with limited prep as it was a decade ago when we raced at Rockingham are long gone....

Well it doesn't cost you points, it costs you money.  Some on the Board were trying to help out with that.  :(

 

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I think the last 3 posts demonstrate why the rule book is difficult. The board, tac, and tech staff can't win when no answer makes people happy. 

 

We can't rationally be complaining about a change of rules and then complain again when they switch back 24hrs latter. 

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4 hours ago, oddcarnut said:

 

Alas the days of this being a series for low cost cars with limited prep as it was a decade ago when we raced at Rockingham are long gone....

 

Limited prep doesn't work anymore.

 

Too many people have figured out how to make cars fast, and too many people want to be competitive.  Even LeMons isn't limited prep anymore if you want any chance at being near the pointy end.

 

The idea of limited prep worked just fine in 2009 when nobody had really developed a car for this type of racing, and everyone was running whatever junk tires they could scrounge up.  There may have been a few years of limited prep, but the horse is out of the barn now.  Any series that starts up will rapidly devolve into heavily prepped cars because too many people know what needs to be done to make a car reliable and competitive.  It would take SCCA rulebook levels of scrutiny to maintain a limited prep series, and that adds it's own set of complexities, and many people just don't want to jump through a million hoops to go limited prep racing.

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5 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Limited prep doesn't work anymore.

 

this is something people don't understand.  I've seen so many people post about how the car has been in the trailer 3 months after the last race and they will fix it up weeks before the race.   I'm sure other teams are the same way, but I will empty the trailer the day after the truck gets home, put the car up and do a 2-3hr inspection and start a list on the white board of what needs to be addressed.  Then i spend 2-3 hrs every day after work in the shop tinkering on the car, and basically every weekend.   Thankfully my wife has been extremely good about it, I have to take her out to dinner at least once a week so she stays my wife. 

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5 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

this is something people don't understand.  I've seen so many people post about how the car has been in the trailer 3 months after the last race and they will fix it up weeks before the race.   I'm sure other teams are the same way, but I will empty the trailer the day after the truck gets home, put the car up and do a 2-3hr inspection and start a list on the white board of what needs to be addressed.  Then i spend 2-3 hrs every day after work in the shop tinkering on the car, and basically every weekend.   Thankfully my wife has been extremely good about it, I have to take her out to dinner at least once a week so she stays my wife. 

Slacker. haha. I start making the list when I am leaving the track on my phone notes section of things to go over, things to improve, changes needed, driver feedback to adjust items, etc.

 

I do know of a lot of teams that start to do work 2-3 weeks before and event and scramble to get things done.

 

Or the last race I did not because she broke yet again and needs a long timeout as I need a vacation from the stress. Next year.

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43 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Slacker. haha. I start making the list when I am leaving the track on my phone notes section of things to go over, things to improve, changes needed, driver feedback to adjust items, etc.

 

I do know of a lot of teams that start to do work 2-3 weeks before and event and scramble to get things done.

 

Or the last race I did not because she broke yet again and needs a long timeout as I need a vacation from the stress. Next year.

Slacker...  we do it during the race and immediately after the race with the entire team...16040161219351075282486.thumb.jpg.09f7ace1455f2734c0c98cc9b68657c9.jpg

Written right on the car!

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12 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Slacker...  we do it during the race and immediately after the race with the entire team...16040161219351075282486.thumb.jpg.09f7ace1455f2734c0c98cc9b68657c9.jpg

Written right on the car!

Rob, you have us all crushed then.

 

My favorite is "Weird Noise"  That could mean 100 different things, but good to know.

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3 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Lord if we tried to fix all the weird noises, we'd never race again.    

I believe our typical driver exchanges are usually, "it's making a weird noise, and there is some odd vibrations, but it's running fine so send it"...

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My favorite driver feedback was when a new driver got in and said the steering wheel is not exactly straight so our alignment or something might be off. We all laughed and said it has never been straight and if that is your only complaint we are doing things right.

 

Or a driver gets in and says it is wiggly or doing XYZ and the prior driver will say, it does that, you get used to it, pull on your big girl panties and just drive it.

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My favorite driver exchange from last year.

 

Exiting Driver: Hey the brakes are vibrating but they work.

Entering : Ok

 

Pause

 

Exiting: Oh im not sure but i think i flat spotted one of the tires too.

Entering: Ok

 

Exiting walks to left front looks around tire area comes back

 

Exiting: Left front looks good!

Entering: Why is that a concern?

Exiting: Oh i forgot to mention i hit something REALLY hard with the left front

Entering: Oh Ok.

 

Right before we head out:

 

Exiting: Oh i forgot the steering wheel is not close to straight anymore either probably has something to do with me hitting something.

 

Entering: No poop....

 

 

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53 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

My favorite driver feedback was when a new driver got in and said the steering wheel is not exactly straight so our alignment or something might be off. We all laughed and said it has never been straight and if that is your only complaint we are doing things right.

I had the car at a dyno once and the guy took 4 attempts to drive it onto the rollers... he kept veering off crooked... just couldn’t conceive that the steering wheel wasn’t aligned and kept backing off and hoping it would drive straight the next time!!

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Or a driver gets in and says it is wiggly or doing XYZ and the prior driver will say, it does that, you get used to it, pull on your big girl panties and just drive it.

@Paulie drove my car in 2019, on the practice day (after I had already been on track and said the car was good) he comes in and says “yea it veers strangely when braking”. And I said exactly what you did “oh yea it does that, just drive through it”. But he insisted we check and turns out there was a loose bolt and ovalled out suspension mounting hole and 1/2” of dynamic rear toe... thanks Paulie!

Edited by enginerd
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2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

I believe our typical driver exchanges are usually, "it's making a weird noise, and there is some odd vibrations, but it's running fine so send it"...

Yep   Sometimes I think the team name should have been shake rattle and roll.  

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