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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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So ChampCar will kick a team off the podium based on what they see with a borescope when looking at a flywheel?  Are you able to see whether it is steel, aluminum, *cast iron*, or lighter than stock?

 

A team will not get kicked off the podium for non-claimed axles, 911 parts, can't remember if the wrong engine made the podium, a complete custom non-OE body, yet they will get kicked off with what you can see with a borescope?

 

On another note I will bet anyone that they can't get our starter off a hot engine within 30 minutes.

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No need to drill any holes as the Miata has the release arm thru the side as was shown above and even if the rubber boot is in place it has roome to slide the bore scope in and have a look. So that can be done on a stock setup or a swap. I would venture to guess most other trannies would be the same with a way to look in the same path.

 

 

Troy the auto is a flex plate and it has large holes that you "can" look thru to see the adapter and flywheel if one wishes to do so. No argument just the facts.

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1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

So ChampCar will kick a team off the podium based on what they see with a borescope when looking at a flywheel?  Are you able to see whether it is steel, aluminum, *cast iron*, or lighter than stock?

 

A team will not get kicked off the podium for non-claimed axles, 911 parts, can't remember if the wrong engine made the podium, a complete custom non-OE body, yet they will get kicked off with what you can see with a borescope?

 

On another note I will bet anyone that they can't get our starter off a hot engine within 30 minutes.

  I have this thing its called a magnet

and I know how yo use it.

  Calling bull cookies on all this kaka you spread.

   Challange accepted, see you in impound. Oh probably NOT.

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1 hour ago, Ray Franck said:

  I have this thing its called a magnet

and I know how yo use it.

  Calling bull cookies on all this kaka you spread.

   Challange accepted, see you in impound. Oh probably NOT.

 

Kaka, what kaka is that Ray?  Pretty sure it was you that said your "bore scope will see all" above.

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30 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Kaka, what kaka is that Ray?  Pretty sure it was you that said your "bore scope will see all" above.

  The kaka you spoke of the 911 axle, wrong motor, complete custom body the what will what won't kaka.  If you cannot even tell when you are spreading BS I assure you most here can. 100% negative Ron_e 

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The old Rabbit has a timing plug on the top of the transaxel, and the flywheel bolts to the pressure plate which is bolted to the crank VW did things their own way in the 70's-90's, the flywheel has the timing marks on it and is right through the hole. Very easy to see and stick a magnet on. Though it's not too likely to be in impound any time soon , it's probably too legal, I haven't been able to Mark Donahue it yet. Hehe

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13 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

  The kaka you spoke of the 911 axle, wrong motor, complete custom body the what will what won't kaka.  If you cannot even tell when you are spreading BS I assure you most here can. 100% negative Ron_e 

 

There is a comma between axles and 911 parts meaning two separate events.  The axles was me, I was at an event and both Mike Chisek and Mike Morrison were standing beside a podium car, I said those five lug axles with Moser labels are not claimed.  I picked that item as it was the easiest indisputable non-claimed part.  Mike M said OK where is your protest form?  I looked at both Mikes then walked away.

 

The inspection hole will be on the engine side of my flywheel which may be painted - with paint mixed with grinding filings.  Carry on with your 2 point non-OE cast iron headers, mix and match zero point engine/transmissions, 305=350.  I don't understand your rules.

Edited by Ron_e
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If Champcar actually makes a rule that only stipulates a difference between Aluminum and steel flywheels, they will have another shitstorm on their hands. 
First off, the small diameter “fancy” race clutches all use steel flywheels.  
Second, the Aluminum and Steel lightweight flywheels basically weigh the same.  
The rule needs to read like this:

1. Stock diameter lightweight flywheels (steel or aluminum) XX points.

2. Smaller diameter flywheels XXX points. 
3. Clutches are open.  
 

You can’t use a multidisc lightweight clutch with a stock type flywheel. Realistically anyway. But allowing “performance” OE style clutches (and pressure plates) won’t save any weight and only allow them to last longer.  Those should be allowed.  
Im not talking about lasting a race or not. I’m talking 4 races or 8 races.  
 

Ive sent a detailed explanation with pictures to the BOD I hoped that they can avoid another mess. 

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54 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The rule needs to read like this:

1. Stock diameter lightweight flywheels (steel or aluminum) XX points.

2. Smaller diameter flywheels XXX points. 
3. Clutches are open.

You don’t have to add anything about material or diameter. Why make it complicated? Rule should be:

 

Non OE flywheel: XX points

Non OE clutch: YY points

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24 minutes ago, enginerd said:

You don’t have to add anything about material or diameter. Why make it complicated? Rule should be:

 

Non OE flywheel: XX points

Non OE clutch: YY points

How do you tell the difference between a stock clutch and a “performance” clutch with a bore scope?  Gonna be impossible.  Plus, what are the advantages of a “performance” clutch?  Usually higher clamping loads which really shouldn’t be an issue with normal power levels. Also longer lasting friction material. Which only saves money.  They are not any lighter..maybe ounces at most.  
One of the big issues was being able to tech these.  Seeing a lightweight flywheel is relatively easy. Spotting an Exedy OE replacement vs and Exedy Stage 1 clutch would be impossible with a bore scope.  

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15 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

How do you tell the difference between a stock clutch and a “performance” clutch with a bore scope?  Gonna be impossible.  Plus, what are the advantages of a “performance” clutch?  Usually higher clamping loads which really shouldn’t be an issue with normal power levels. Also longer lasting friction material. Which only saves money.  They are not any lighter..maybe ounces at most.  
One of the big issues was being able to tech these.  Seeing a lightweight flywheel is relatively easy. Spotting an Exedy OE replacement vs and Exedy Stage 1 clutch would be impossible with a bore scope.  

Doesn’t mean you can’t make it a rule. Have you been running aftermarket clutch this whole time? Haven’t been able to check it.

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Doesn’t mean you can’t make it a rule. Have you been running aftermarket clutch this whole time? Haven’t been able to check it.

What?  I was running a stock clutch, but I have a small dia race clutch that I bought plates for when the “open” rule came out.  So if I was smart, I would be lobbying for the open rule to stand. But that’s not the spirit of Champcar.  I don’t think they should be open.  Yes, that’s going to hurt me personally, but I’m able to see the bigger picture here.  Please don’t assume poop. 
 

The point is, if you do any logical thinking, the clutches themselves are not an issue.  It’s the lightweight flywheels and the small diameter flywheels and clutches to go along with them.  It’s by far the simplest way to police this.  
 

Look at the pictures below and tell me how you would tell the difference with a bore scope. Also, tell me what the advantage of one or the other actually is.   
 

 

6A6B37DF-CC1F-4689-AB31-71861B1F36AA.jpeg

23AD16DE-5891-4D40-807A-D63B6C4C51CA.jpeg

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2 hours ago, petawawarace said:

What?  I was running a stock clutch, but I have a small dia race clutch that I bought plates for when the “open” rule came out.  So if I was smart, I would be lobbying for the open rule to stand. But that’s not the spirit of Champcar.  I don’t think they should be open.  Yes, that’s going to hurt me personally, but I’m able to see the bigger picture here.  Please don’t assume poop. 
 

The point is, if you do any logical thinking, the clutches themselves are not an issue.  It’s the lightweight flywheels and the small diameter flywheels and clutches to go along with them.  It’s by far the simplest way to police this.  
 

Look at the pictures below and tell me how you would tell the difference with a bore scope. Also, tell me what the advantage of one or the other actually is.   
 

 

6A6B37DF-CC1F-4689-AB31-71861B1F36AA.jpeg

23AD16DE-5891-4D40-807A-D63B6C4C51CA.jpeg

Those both fulfil the oe specs.  Don't care if somebody runs a stage 1 or 2 or whatever stage clutch you wanna run.

 

If it is stock looking, that's fine.

 

If you get in there with a boroscope and it has multiple clutches, diameter is way off, something like that....  points.

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5 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Those both fulfil the oe specs.  Don't care if somebody runs a stage 1 or 2 or whatever stage clutch you wanna run.

 

If it is stock looking, that's fine.

 

If you get in there with a boroscope and it has multiple clutches, diameter is way off, something like that....  points.

 

So on the ecotec Miata, is a one piece flywheel accepted or will it be the 3 part cobbled together version only?

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Techdesk question.

Copout. 

 

Should have never asked what open flywheel clutches ment at this point a few weeks ago. Could have let it go and run whatever per the 2021 rules as written (0 points for flywheels, 0 for clutch)

 

It's frustrating trying to hit a ever moving target.

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53 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Techdesk question.

I am literally shocked that ANYBODY has any faith in the Tech Desk after the sh!t show that it has been this year.

It was used to CHANGE rules already in the BCCR.

New Tech Desk “rulings” were written to override earlier versions in order to give teams dramatically lower TCV (IRS swap turned from per component to a flat 50 points).

It was used to create new rules outside of the BCCR.

TAC members had no idea that some of the Tech Desk decisions had even been published, made, whatever. 

It was an unmitigated disaster that turned into a “real mess” and a “second BCCR”. And that quote is from a series representative to me.

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9 hours ago, Snorman said:

I am literally shocked that ANYBODY has any faith in the Tech Desk after the sh!t show that it has been this year.

It was used to CHANGE rules already in the BCCR.

New Tech Desk “rulings” were written to override earlier versions in order to give teams dramatically lower TCV (IRS swap turned from per component to a flat 50 points).

It was used to create new rules outside of the BCCR.

TAC members had no idea that some of the Tech Desk decisions had even been published, made, whatever. 

It was an unmitigated disaster that turned into a “real mess” and a “second BCCR”. And that quote is from a series representative to me.

Keep in mind tech desk just made it public or at least more visible.   

I had 30+ questions/rulings via email prior to tech desk.  Now I just submit a form vs. an email.

I don't envy tech's position, there is a lot of open air in the BCCR.  I've been very impressed with the last few tech desk replies I've received. I know they are taking their time and thinking through these carefully.

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