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12 hours ago, Snorman said:

From my familiarity with WRL rules, our car doesn't cross over to WRL very well. We leave a LOT on the table running in GP1. And from what I've seen over the last year, WRL is moving up very quickly. There were ~35 GTO entries at COTA including an Aston Martin. 

To me, the choice is build the car to WRL and simply race EC in CC or build for CC and leave a lot of speed out of the car for WRL. 

COTA is not representative of most WRL races, especially this year. COTA always brings out a lot more GTO cars than normal, but this year was worse. Lots of the teams this year were at their first (and likely only) WRL race. I doubt you'll see the Austin Dillon/Tyler Reddick/Kaz Grala car at another event next year.

 

All that said, a competitive WRL car doesn't need to break the bank as long as you stay out of the GTO sandbox. But I don't see how a competitive GP1 car would be anything but EC in CC.

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8 hours ago, petawawarace said:

I think the fact that an A class car can contend for the win against all the other displacements is part of what works for Champcar.  That A class car gets it’s speed in different ways that the BMWs or vettes.  Obviously some tracks suit others more than some but that’s racing.  Champcar is about building the car to the rules as much as it is about driving it.  The other series all have classes based on speed and it doesn’t promote making your car faster.  That’s fine for some, but others want to build the car too.  Let’s just make sure the complexities (and changes) of the rules don’t drive people away.  

I agree that it is important not to drive teams away, but it is definitely a different kind of series that has the ability to have the slower classes in contention for an overall win. Just saying to me it is hard to fathom. But I do like building too and am working to improve my ride. Maybe I can make a 38 year old car compete at that level too. Though I doubt I can keep the VPI below 500 or in A with out turbo or supercharger as an option.

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Only done 1 WRL race, that was at COTA. All the GTO cars messed it up and made it less fun, that was the largest class! 

It also sucks to only race 20 of 100 cars in the field due to the class systems. I like chump more.

 

(We did zero prep and got placed in GP2  with our NC (2366 lbs, 165whp). All the other NCs are in GP3)

 

Chump favors power over handling whilst WRL is the opposite, so I can see how some of the fast chumpcars cars would be hopelessly classed in GP2 or GP1 even.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, TBone said:

COTA is not representative of most WRL races, especially this year. COTA always brings out a lot more GTO cars than normal, but this year was worse. Lots of the teams this year were at their first (and likely only) WRL race. I doubt you'll see the Austin Dillon/Tyler Reddick/Kaz Grala car at another event next year.

 

All that said, a competitive WRL car doesn't need to break the bank as long as you stay out of the GTO sandbox. But I don't see how a competitive GP1 car would be anything but EC in CC.

Looking at the races we'd run about 30-35% of the field were GTO class cars in 2020. 

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We built the #352 NC Miata to run in ChampCar and GP1 (with some parts bolted on). While we haven't run a WRL race (the new ownership made windshields required and I'm trying to get them to change that), I would say it's slightly more expensive and much more labor intensive to build to the limit of the rules in ChampCar. Weight reduction isn't penalized, so you need to do things like two-piece rotors (extra-penalized in WRL), pedal boxes, lightweight steering columns, etc. Plus WRL allows reliability mods without penalty.

 

WRL is almost entirely weight/power, so you need to start with a great chassis with less drag, lift, better weight distribution, geometry, etc. than others in your class.

 

I do prefer ChampCar's approach of basically everyone racing for the overall win. Our classing system is ridiculous; displacement has little to do with performance.

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1 hour ago, Grant said:

We built the #352 NC Miata to run in ChampCar and GP1 (with some parts bolted on). While we haven't run a WRL race (the new ownership made windshields required and I'm trying to get them to change that), I would say it's slightly more expensive and much more labor intensive to build to the limit of the rules in ChampCar. Weight reduction isn't penalized, so you need to do things like two-piece rotors (extra-penalized in WRL), pedal boxes, lightweight steering columns, etc. Plus WRL allows reliability mods without penalty.

 

WRL is almost entirely weight/power, so you need to start with a great chassis with less drag, lift, better weight distribution, geometry, etc. than others in your class.

 

I do prefer ChampCar's approach of basically everyone racing for the overall win. Our classing system is ridiculous; displacement has little to do with performance.

 

Classes is to give out more prices for teams that really don't have a chance of winning. If overall is worth 10 awesomepoints, a class win is 1 awesomepoint.

 

Chumpcar is a builders series, it gives you credit for building a fast minivan race car. That explains the complicated rules.

I think everyone needs have this in mind when they read the rules, it explains a lot. At least it helped me with a lot of frustration.

 

WRL is a racing series. It only cares about how fast the car is. (Most of the cars are BMWs, Porsches and Miatas. Simply because building a Astro racecar makes little sense. And making a C3 fast is much harder than making a Miata/BMW fast).

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, atxe30 said:

Which series though, NB, NC, ND, etc....I'd imagine a late model, i.e. tail end of NC or ND.....

NA.  1.6

 

I don't think there are any "stock builds" in champcar.  If you don't get a little crazy with the build, it probably won't be too competitive.

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7 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

NA.  1.6

 

I don't think there are any "stock builds" in champcar.  If you don't get a little crazy with the build, it probably won't be too competitive.

True statement. We ran a stock 1.6 Miata for a couple races and were absolutely destroyed on the straights by E30s. Now with reduced weight, aero, and a 1.8l we can nearly keep up. Definitely not a great series to just hop in the Miata and expect to be competitive. 

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10 hours ago, cowboys647 said:

True statement. We ran a stock 1.6 Miata for a couple races and were absolutely destroyed on the straights by E30s. Now with reduced weight, aero, and a 1.8l we can nearly keep up. Definitely not a great series to just hop in the Miata and expect to be competitive. 

 

Unless you have a NC, 2:43-2:45s at COTA with easy bolt ons. Downside is same fuel tank as the NB but 20more hp.

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On 12/9/2020 at 10:59 PM, TBone said:

COTA is not representative of most WRL races, especially this year. COTA always brings out a lot more GTO cars than normal, but this year was worse. Lots of the teams this year were at their first (and likely only) WRL race. I doubt you'll see the Austin Dillon/Tyler Reddick/Kaz Grala car at another event next year.

 

All that said, a competitive WRL car doesn't need to break the bank as long as you stay out of the GTO sandbox. But I don't see how a competitive GP1 car would be anything but EC in CC.

what gets lost in all of this is the idea that if we want grassroots racing to thrive, it should be easy to administratively float between two series like CC and WRL, and while you may optimize for one or the other, the important part is that you get to maximize race time in your given region.

 

this is the point i was trying to make earlier, and just didn't articulate it very effectively.

 

it's unclear to me at this point that the root cause issues with the rule that were manifest with the 'vette situation and apparently a previous one at indy with boxster have been addressed, and i just dont get the mental masturbation around fixing the tire thing, but whatever. if i build a car for WRL, i sure as poop am going to run it at the two CC events at my home track (HH), even if its an EC car.

 

put differently these dialogs are not focused on the right objective....

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2 hours ago, atxe30 said:

what gets lost in all of this is the idea that if we want grassroots racing to thrive, it should be easy to administratively float between two series like CC and WRL, and while you may optimize for one or the other, the important part is that you get to maximize race time in your given region.

 

this is the point i was trying to make earlier, and just didn't articulate it very effectively.

What would either series stand to gain by making their rules more congruent with the other? 

 

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23 minutes ago, Snorman said:

What would either series stand to gain by making their rules more congruent with the other? 

 

its a regional question really. if you want to race a lot and not drag poop around outside a say 3-500 mile radius then it benefits everyone to facilitate that. and to be clear, i'm not talking about congruency in the rule construct sense, just administrative. so basically safety stuff. more than that, not included.

 

edit to add: i hate the replacement logic for s***. sheesh...

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1 hour ago, atxe30 said:

its a regional question really. if you want to race a lot and not drag poop around outside a say 3-500 mile radius then it benefits everyone to facilitate that. and to be clear, i'm not talking about congruency in the rule construct sense, just administrative. so basically safety stuff. more than that, not included.

 

edit to add: i hate the replacement logic for s***. sheesh...

The safety rules are similar. There are some pit stop requirement differences, but that's it. Also, WRL requires rear windows, CCES doesn't. And WRL, quite frankly, doesn't want total sh*tboxes in the series. That being said, they welcomed our Mazda and it's a borderline sh*tbox. And doesn't have a back window. Obviously the classing is different. I don't know what other "administrative" rules you want to be similar. 

The difference is, if you build to the limit in WRL, you're going to get screwed in CCES (at least WE will). And if you build to the limit in CCES, you'll be giving up speed in WRL (at least WE will). There is zero incentive for either series to change this. Why would either make it easier to run in competing series? 

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14 hours ago, atxe30 said:

it's unclear to me at this point that the root cause issues with the rule that were manifest with the 'vette situation and apparently a previous one at indy with boxster have been addressed, and i just dont get the mental masturbation around fixing the tire thing, but whatever. if i build a car for WRL, i sure as poop am going to run it at the two CC events at my home track (HH), even if its an EC car.

AER requires you to go to the cold pits for jacking the car up therefore limiting tire choice to ones that last the whole race. So fixing the tire thing is being more compatible with other series.

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I think NC can work in both, might have to detune/ballast to GP3. 

 

Seems like chumpcars that are competitive due to handling can transition between the two?

 

GP3 laptimes and chumpcar laptimes seems very similar, at least at COTA. (My guess is 2.43s at COTA and 1.27s at Harris Hill)

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Well, I pick up the e34 540i tomorrow. No doubt will end up an EC car in CC, prob GP1 in WRL.

 

Not sure if I'm going to pull the motor and build it right away yet as its in great shape and already has a perf chipped ECU. It does however have the OEM air box and manifolds. I think that engine can be put at a crank output north of 300 with airflow and exhaust updates. There are also known race builds at a weight of 2500 (without body panel replacements).

 

We'll see how this develops....

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10 hours ago, morganf said:

AER requires you to go to the cold pits for jacking the car up therefore limiting tire choice to ones that last the whole race. So fixing the tire thing is being more compatible with other series.

i think that people are over-analyzing this topic. if you want to prevent people burning 5k on tires in a weekend, then limit them to a finite number of tires for a given event, i.e. you get 2 dry sets plus one wet set, etc. (and if you want to allow one additional tire for puncture scenario fine, whatever).

 

no one should care about when you change them etc. just figure out the most bulletproof way to mark the tires as they come into the event and move on. Yes, there are ways to deal with this. This is a solved problem at the highest levels of racing as i've pointed out many times in the other thread, so no need to re-invent the wheel here....(pun very much intended....)

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14 hours ago, atxe30 said:

Well, I pick up the e34 540i tomorrow. No doubt will end up an EC car in CC, prob GP1 in WRL.

 

Not sure if I'm going to pull the motor and build it right away yet as its in great shape and already has a perf chipped ECU. It does however have the OEM air box and manifolds. I think that engine can be put at a crank output north of 300 with airflow and exhaust updates. There are also known race builds at a weight of 2500 (without body panel replacements).

 

We'll see how this develops....

I would poop my pants if that car is under 3k ready to race.

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3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I would poop my pants if that car is under 3k ready to race.

 

He said 2500 without replacing any panels.  He didn't say how many got permanently removed to get there 😛

 

edit: seems doable, though.  Curb weight for a base euro-spec 520i is 3082lb.

Edited by karman1970
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7 hours ago, atxe30 said:

allocations seem to work for F1, Indy, etc.....

 

what exactly makes it so bad?

The clothing budget for those teams is larger than my annual budget. 

 

Team Infinity laid it out pretty well above, but I'll elaborate. 

 

A 6 tire weekend is a high use event to us.  That is running RE71s. There are a bunch of folks who think that is too many tires. I am ok either way, but more would be crazy as it re-enforces the idea to run more tires. 

 

3 sets of tires, many people call RE71s their rain tires, would allow a team to burn off tires at 5hrs per set. Which is race tire territory. 

 

Lastly something not raised by Team Infinity, it would be very hard to enforce. I don't see Champcar managing tire allocations. Doing tire inventory, marking tires, and reconciling tire use during a race is a ton of work. 

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