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28 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/c3/radiators/15952?&vehicleIdSearch=147382&beginIndex=0&sortBy=5&_r=0.22720051699078536

 

image.thumb.png.5d0ebd53bc50058d20f89a0cf026bdd9.png

 

Looks to me like you are good to go with your $139 radiator.

 

 

Trust me, I know all about the cheapy plastic tanks.  Even the OEM Nissens dont last consistently on my cars, so I replace annually.  Thank you FCP Euro!


FCP is the best! I haven’t paid for new rotors in 2 years. They are 30 minutes from my house so I don’t even have to pay for shipping the used items back.

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Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

I think everybody wants everybody to finish.   It's up to the team captain to spend their points on reliability versus speed parts to make that happen.   If a captain chooses speed

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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37 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Keep in mind that when this petition was written the precedent had been established (but not yet written into the bccr) that dealership pricing was allowed in some situations.

 

Dealership pricing is basically saying "radiators are open".  This forum's opinion seems to be pretty mixed on that, with some vehemently against that.   

 

1x dealership cost for my car would be $600, which buys one heck of a radiator.

 

Compromises are going to have good parts and bad parts.. thats the definition of a compromise.   Told You So Shrug GIF

Wow! What car is that and how much is a Autozone radiator for your car?

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

In regards to not all tech desk articles moving to the BCCR - this was discussed between myself, the BOD, and staff. Due to time constraints it just wasn't possible.  Normally the cycle is from April to Sep 1.  This year, the BOD meeting was in late August, a week before that Sept 1 date.  What I did was choose 10 knowledgebase (KB) articles I thought were the most impactful, and suggest those to be moved to the BCCR.  

 

Moving forward, I am working to add more articles to the KB.  There are hundreds of questions that have been asked and answered that are not public.  I need to group similar ones together, categorize it, and make the questions/answers public.  

 

Additionally, I have a working list of public KB articles that should be moved to the BCCR in 2022, and hopefully with a normal timeline I will be able to get more than 10 done.

If it's published in the KB it's an official rule, right? 

So why can't we revise the BCCR, as time allows, to capture those articles this year?

Still 16 weeks until the first 2021 race (not sure when they start doing 2021 tech stickers)

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8 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Wow! What car is that and how much is a Autozone radiator for your car?

E30 325i. 

 

Carquest Brand $99

Most expensive option at Advance = $236 Nissens OEM

 

Nissens from FCP is ~$130

 

BMW branded Nissens from online dealer is $600

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Radiators ..... let go over this one more time for the slow kid in the class (me). 

 

Section 4.1-4.32 says  image.png.68919d9ec054dfcd93c1d15c951b6e0f.png 

Reading that says to me that I can use any radiator that costs less the the '$600 OE radiator', correct? 

 

Section 4.7.3 says

image.png.7dd45c05faebfecf2a068861f0ad63e7.png

 

Reading that says I can use any radiator  priced equal to or less than chain auto parts store radiators.

 

Which is it?  Less than OE prices? Or less than chain auto parts store prices?    Curious minds want to know.  

 

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13 minutes ago, bjaspud said:

Radiators ..... let go over this one more time for the slow kid in the class (me). 

 

Section 4.1-4.32 says  image.png.68919d9ec054dfcd93c1d15c951b6e0f.png 

Reading that says to me that I can use any radiator that costs less the the '$600 OE radiator', correct? 

 

Section 4.7.3 says

image.png.7dd45c05faebfecf2a068861f0ad63e7.png

 

Reading that says I can use any radiator  priced equal to or less than chain auto parts store radiators.

 

Which is it?  Less than OE prices? Or less than chain auto parts store prices?    Curious minds want to know.  

 

Oe is original equipment spec.  It is not necessarily the original manufacturer. 

 

Your local flaps sell mostly oe spec parts.

 

You need to use the flaps pricing.

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50 minutes ago, bjaspud said:

Radiators ..... let go over this one more time for the slow kid in the class (me). 

 

Section 4.1-4.32 says  image.png.68919d9ec054dfcd93c1d15c951b6e0f.png 

Reading that says to me that I can use any radiator that costs less the the '$600 OE radiator', correct? 

 

Section 4.7.3 says

image.png.7dd45c05faebfecf2a068861f0ad63e7.png

 

Reading that says I can use any radiator  priced equal to or less than chain auto parts store radiators.

 

Which is it?  Less than OE prices? Or less than chain auto parts store prices?    Curious minds want to know.  

 

It does not say that you have to use the cheapest radiator to compare with.  The rule is a nice way of saying don't spend more than 200ish on a radiator and you will be fine.

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1 hour ago, bjaspud said:

Radiators ..... let go over this one more time for the slow kid in the class (me). 

 

Section 4.1-4.32 says  image.png.68919d9ec054dfcd93c1d15c951b6e0f.png 

Reading that says to me that I can use any radiator that costs less the the '$600 OE radiator', correct? 

 

Section 4.7.3 says

image.png.7dd45c05faebfecf2a068861f0ad63e7.png

 

Reading that says I can use any radiator  priced equal to or less than chain auto parts store radiators.

 

Which is it?  Less than OE prices? Or less than chain auto parts store prices?    Curious minds want to know.  

 

 

Agree, if the intent is chain store cost it should say "OE-spec replacement at chain store cost", not "OE cost".  If the intent is OE cost then it should remain "OE cost".

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5 hours ago, Huggy said:

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.

 

In regards to not all tech desk articles moving to the BCCR - this was discussed between myself, the BOD, and staff. Due to time constraints it just wasn't possible.

 

I have a HUGE issue with this, tech desk is making up rules that don't exist or contradicted other tech desk articles which is essentially making up rules without the petition process or board approval.

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wvumtnbkr - Thanks for offering your opinion.   You post frequently and appear to know your stuff. Do you have actual first hand knowledge that your radiator interpretation is what leadership intended or is it just your opinion?  Do you have any official standing or office within Champcar?   Just curious.  ( I don't know who all is sits on committees or boards) 

 

My opinion, is that "radiator greater than OE cost + 30 points" means 'any radiator costing more that what I'd pay at a dealer is 30 pts."      The actual wording of doesn't say 'OE spec' OR 'OE Manufacturer'. 

 

Can someone tell me how I go about seeking an official answer / clarification?    

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8 minutes ago, bjaspud said:

wvumtnbkr - Thanks for offering your opinion.   You post frequently and appear to know your stuff. Do you have actual first hand knowledge that your radiator interpretation is what leadership intended or is it just your opinion?  Do you have any official standing or office within Champcar?   Just curious.  ( I don't know who all is sits on committees or boards) 

 

My opinion, is that "radiator greater than OE cost + 30 points" means 'any radiator costing more that what I'd pay at a dealer is 30 pts."      The actual wording of doesn't say 'OE spec' OR 'OE Manufacturer'. 

 

Can someone tell me how I go about seeking an official answer / clarification?    

I agree with you, hopefully someone will clear it up from Champcar.   If this is the biggest issue with the new rule book, I would consider that a win. 

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32 minutes ago, bjaspud said:

wvumtnbkr - Thanks for offering your opinion.   You post frequently and appear to know your stuff. Do you have actual first hand knowledge that your radiator interpretation is what leadership intended or is it just your opinion?  Do you have any official standing or office within Champcar?   Just curious.  ( I don't know who all is sits on committees or boards) 

 

My opinion, is that "radiator greater than OE cost + 30 points" means 'any radiator costing more that what I'd pay at a dealer is 30 pts."      The actual wording of doesn't say 'OE spec' OR 'OE Manufacturer'. 

 

Can someone tell me how I go about seeking an official answer / clarification?    

Nope not official.  I do talk with a few of the board members and a few people on the tac on a darn near daily basis.

 

It's no secret that @E. Tyler Pedersen and I are good friends.  He is on the board.

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54 minutes ago, Grufton said:

Regarding active aero, the statement included in the annual meeting was "Ban Aftermarked Active Aero", seems the tech desk version is what made the final cut however.

I was a bit disappointed that active aero was in the 2021 rules. I don't think that's a path we need to go down.

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1 minute ago, hotrod said:

I was a bit disappointed that active aero was in the 2021 rules. I don't think that's a path we need to go down.

 

I think a homemade active aero is something that is very chumpy, can be built in your garage with cheap modern electronics.

 

To make it work well and fine tine it might be different.

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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

I think a homemade active aero is something that is very chumpy, can be built in your garage with cheap modern electronics.

 

To make it work well and fine tine it might be different.

If it works right it's an advantage but it takes a lot of time & money to get it right. F1 and IndyCar has spent big money to make it work. I've seen a Lemons car the the rear wing would stand straight up under braking to help slow the car down. It also unloaded the front end making it push. I say all aerodynamic devices should be stationary. It's also a moving target because you will be charged points for it but you won't know what the amount is till you get to tech.

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9 minutes ago, hotrod said:

If it works right it's an advantage but it takes a lot of time & money to get it right. F1 and IndyCar has spent big money to make it work. I've seen a Lemons car the the rear wing would stand straight up under braking to help slow the car down. It also unloaded the front end making it push. I say all aerodynamic devices should be stationary. It's also a moving target because you will be charged points for it but you won't know what the amount is till you get to tech.

 

Good point. But if someone shows up with a homemade system they built for $500 that actually works then I think it's in the spirit of the rules.

 

I think it's nonsense but it does go with the chumpcar spirit.

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

I think a homemade active aero is something that is very chumpy, can be built in your garage with cheap modern electronics.

 

To make it work well and fine tine it might be different.

I think one has to remember everyone’s garage/race shop is not the same.  There are teams that could do this very right.  We don’t need active aero.  IMO 

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10 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I think everybody wants everybody to finish.

 

It's up to the team captain to spend their points on reliability versus speed parts to make that happen.

 

If a captain chooses speed parts over reliability, that ain't champcar fault.

 

If all reliability items become free so everybody finishes, speed parts need to be increased in value about 2 fold.

 

In other words, you are simply asking for champcar to take the decision of speed versus reliability away from the captain.

 

Edit to give a real world example...  troy, your vpi is what 250?  An oil cooler is like 30pts or something.  An accusump 20 pts...  a radiator is currently 10 pts.  Total of 310 pts with reliability taken care of.

 

So you have 190 points left for go fast bits....  if you chose not to do any of these items, that's on you.  YOU made that choice to use points elsewhere. 

I take points for my accusump and I am fine with it, but this is not about my car. There are cars that do not have points to get an accusump and blow up, but that team might not come back. What I do not get is how that can get ignored so often. Then if they blow up and do not come back people say, the caption choose their action so to bad for them. Also, please do not assume I am saying this or that for my car, as this has nothing to do with my car and I am trying to look at the series as a hole and for the future of teams and the series.

 

Speed or reliability away from the caption.  Hmm on this one as a team has to choose to have a high probability of blowing up and finishing in the top 10 or a higher probability of finishing, but being mid pack. I think almost every team will want to at least be in the hunt and not drive around and pick the speedy items. I know a team that has this exact scenario and wants to try to be competitive and not mid pack. They have stated if the blow up again they are parting out the car and not racing anymore. The reality is that they will blow up at some point in not having an accusump and be done with racing. That is what guts me, a team will be out of Champcar and out of racing because of the rules and wanting to compete. I find that sad.

 

I do agree certain items needs to be points and more points for speed. I would agree that we could make reliability items less points or zero and add speedy points for things. That would be a big shift in how points and all have been for the last ten years the Condron saying of we did not choose your car and giggle as you blow up and laugh.

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1 hour ago, hotrod said:

If it works right it's an advantage but it takes a lot of time & money to get it right. F1 and IndyCar has spent big money to make it work. I've seen a Lemons car the the rear wing would stand straight up under braking to help slow the car down. It also unloaded the front end making it push. I say all aerodynamic devices should be stationary. It's also a moving target because you will be charged points for it but you won't know what the amount is till you get to tech.

Unless you reuse your popup headlight motors then it's free.

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On the radiator rule.

What if O'Riley, Autozone, Pepboys and NAPA do not have a radiator for the car as the car is so old there are no replacement ones. Then what? Can we use OEM at that point? 

 

What if the OEM does not sell them anymore and part not available?

 

What do we do then when the only replacement option is aftermarket and aluminum?

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10 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

On the radiator rule.

What if O'Riley, Autozone, Pepboys and NAPA do not have a radiator for the car as the car is so old there are no replacement ones. Then what? 

What do we do then when the only replacement option is aftermarket and aluminum?

The answer is still buy the <$99 one on ebay and you'll be fine.

20201018_205022.thumb.jpg.b1f8f16972fa27449bd24e4f70e094d5.jpg

 

Edited by morganf
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2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

But don't you need to find a retail chain store to justify the cheap ebay one? What if you can not find one?

 

 

What if you have an aftermarket radiator already installed. Do you have to prove it is priced lower than the chain auto parts stores or the dealership? 

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