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Just now, Bill Strong said:

 

 

First thing you need to do is reuse some of that money you have and become a member, then get back to visiting us at some ChampCar races. That would be a very good start.

Any races out that way?

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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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7 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

First thing you need to do is reuse some of that money you have and become a member, then get back to visiting us at some ChampCar races. That would be a very good start.

Let me know when Champcar is going to have some races out here and I'll get a membership. 

6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Any races out that way?

Nope. Hoping for Utah but our 2021 dance card might be full by the time that gets added. 

Edited by mender
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20 hours ago, bjaspud said:

Radiators ..... let go over this one more time for the slow kid in the class (me). 

 

Section 4.1-4.32 says  image.png.68919d9ec054dfcd93c1d15c951b6e0f.png 

Reading that says to me that I can use any radiator that costs less the the '$600 OE radiator', correct? 

 

Section 4.7.3 says

image.png.7dd45c05faebfecf2a068861f0ad63e7.png

 

Reading that says I can use any radiator  priced equal to or less than chain auto parts store radiators.

 

Which is it?  Less than OE prices? Or less than chain auto parts store prices?    Curious minds want to know.  

 

 

Commenting on the radiator wording issue.  I'm taking it as a success that this is the biggest issue we have found so far.

 

I believe the appropriate wording for 4.3.2 would be "Radiator greater than 1x cost: 30 pts", and my suggestion would be for you to interpret it that way if you are shopping for radiators, as that is what I understood the intent to be based on direction from the BOD.  If you choose to interpret it as the dealership OE part's cost, I doubt you will find success with that argument.

 

 

Now, outside of the tech writer, this is what I have always understood when dealing with parts:

 

OE = Original Equipment (IE, the part is actually stamped BMW or FORD or whatever) and would be what you get from the parts counter at the dealership

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer = The company which produced the OE part.  Bosch, Nissens, Denso, Timken, etc are examples of OEM.  An OE part was made by an OEM.

 

So, in terms of champcar, how I would love to write the wording (petition for next year anyone?)

 

OEE Part = OE equivalent part = A part, made by any manufacturer, that meets the specifications of the originally installed part when the vehicle left the factory.

 

So, for example, for a 02 focus 

OE part is FORD brand YS4Z-8005-AA (which is discontinued and NLA from what I can see)

The OEM part is likely this Denso radiator (although it could have been Modine).  

The OEE part would be this, carquest brand radiator, or a similar radiator by any manufacturer (not denso or modine) made to the same specifications and designed to fit an 02 focus

 

Edited by Huggy
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Don't get your hopes up! Active aero was not approved by the BOD.  We found this as a rabbit hole we did not want to go down.  I caught it on Friday and emailed the team and it should not be in there.  Not sure how it ended up in the BCCR.  

 

Other items if you want to discuss I am open via email, PM, or text messaging (currently no phone so it'll be a couple of days).  There are some emails I need to get to that I received over the weekend, but I am getting my information as requested.

 

I am happy to tell you which ways I voted for this year in the petition process. 

 

Also I thought somewhere in the BCCR it mentioned stock and OE were meant to be the same as this was brought up in the 2020 petition process. 

 

Also it is my understanding that anything that was voted on by the BOD that was in the Tech Desk Knowledge Base is now either in the BCCR or not allowed.  For example we decided that IRS would be by component on the Fixed Points List versus having it as a flat point charge.

 

Under the rule 4.4.4 any rulings made by tech are official until voted on by the BOD.  That includes Tech Desk items since that is how we should be understanding the interpretations.

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Tyler. I thought part of the process was that everyone on the BOD proof read the 2021 rules.

 

Don't get your hopes up! Active aero was not approved by the BOD.  We found this as a rabbit hole we did not want to go down.  I caught it on Friday and emailed the team and it should not be in there.  Not sure how it ended up in the BCCR.  

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17 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

Under the rule 4.4.4 any rulings made by tech are official until voted on by the BOD.  That includes Tech Desk items since that is how we should be understanding the interpretations.

Do we have to re re-rulings on all the tech-desk items then for 2021?  I have at least 30.

Is there some kind of process where they can just get re-approved or rejected by tech?  IE: I have some about alternators and others about the width of a Miata.  Alternators would get rejected and miata width would be the same (I hope).  

Edited by LuckyKid
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6 minutes ago, hotrod said:

Tyler. I thought part of the process was that everyone on the BOD proof read the 2021 rules.

 

Don't get your hopes up! Active aero was not approved by the BOD.  We found this as a rabbit hole we did not want to go down.  I caught it on Friday and emailed the team and it should not be in there.  Not sure how it ended up in the BCCR.  

 

It is and that is why I brought it up before the rules were released.

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1 minute ago, LuckyKid said:

Do we have to re re-rulings on all the tech-desk items then for 2021?  I have at least 30.

 

We did not vote on everything.  What is in the rulebook is what was approved.  Not many of the tech desk rulings were brought up after 110 petitions.  I will get with Mike and the BOD on this stuff after Rd America and see how the process should be on this one.

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25 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Commenting on the radiator wording issue.  I'm taking it as a success that this is the biggest issue we have found so far.

 

I believe the appropriate wording for 4.3.2 would be "Radiator greater than 1x cost: 30 pts", and my suggestion would be for you to interpret it that way if you are shopping for radiators, as that is what I understood the intent to be based on direction from the BOD.  If you choose to interpret it as the dealership OE part's cost, I doubt you will find success with that argument.

 

 

Now, outside of the tech writer, this is what I have always understood when dealing with parts:

 

OE = Original Equipment (IE, the part is actually stamped BMW or FORD or whatever) and would be what you get from the parts counter at the dealership

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer = The company which produced the OE part.  Bosch, Nissens, Denso, Timken, etc are examples of OEM.  An OE part was made by an OEM.

 

So, in terms of champcar, how I would love to write the wording (petition for next year anyone?)

 

OEE Part = OE equivalent part = A part, made by any manufacturer, that meets the specifications of the originally installed part when the vehicle left the factory.

 

So, for example, for a 02 focus 

OE part is FORD brand YS4Z-8005-AA (which is discontinued and NLA from what I can see)

The OEM part is likely this Denso radiator (although it could have been Modine).  

The OEE part would be this, carquest brand radiator, or a similar radiator by any manufacturer (not denso or modine) made to the same specifications and designed to fit an 02 focus

 

 

27 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Commenting on the radiator wording issue.  I'm taking it as a success that this is the biggest issue we have found so far.

 

I believe the appropriate wording for 4.3.2 would be "Radiator greater than 1x cost: 30 pts", and my suggestion would be for you to interpret it that way if you are shopping for radiators, as that is what I understood the intent to be based on direction from the BOD.  If you choose to interpret it as the dealership OE part's cost, I doubt you will find success with that argument.

 

 

Now, outside of the tech writer, this is what I have always understood when dealing with parts:

 

OE = Original Equipment (IE, the part is actually stamped BMW or FORD or whatever) and would be what you get from the parts counter at the dealership

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer = The company which produced the OE part.  Bosch, Nissens, Denso, Timken, etc are examples of OEM.  An OE part was made by an OEM.

 

So, in terms of champcar, how I would love to write the wording (petition for next year anyone?)

 

OEE Part = OE equivalent part = A part, made by any manufacturer, that meets the specifications of the originally installed part when the vehicle left the factory.

 

So, for example, for a 02 focus 

OE part is FORD brand YS4Z-8005-AA (which is discontinued and NLA from what I can see)

The OEM part is likely this Denso radiator (although it could have been Modine).  

The OEE part would be this, carquest brand radiator, or a similar radiator by any manufacturer (not denso or modine) made to the same specifications and designed to fit an 02 focus

 

 

@E. Tyler Pedersen I think some clarity on this would be great.

 

Is a O.E replacement the Mazda radiator or the Autozone radiator?

 

(Not a big deal but would be nice to not have to buy a new radiator, I think some of us got screwed because we had 10pts $150-$299 radiators and that is typically higher than Napa. Now they are 30pts)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Do we have to re re-rulings on all the tech-desk items then for 2021?  I have at least 30.

Is there some kind of process where they can just get re-approved or rejected by tech?  IE: I have some about alternators and others about the width of a Miata.  Alternators would get rejected and miata width would be the same (I hope).  

 

I am in the same boat and wondering the same thing.

 

I am still waiting on the damn border to open, but eventually I'll be able to come play with you folks again. 

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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

@E. Tyler Pedersen I think some clarity on this would be great.

 

Is a O.E replacement the Mazda radiator or the Autozone radiator?

 

(Not a big deal but would be nice to not have to buy a new radiator, I think some of us got screwed because we had 10pts $150-$299 radiators and that is typically higher than Napa. Now they are 30pts)

 

 

 

The discussion with the BOD was that this would not effect a lot of teams as there are pretty cheap aluminum radiators online that are less than the cost of an OE radiator so it would fall into free points to keep racing less costly for teams.  The intent was to keep the "racing" type radiators on the FPV list at 30 points.  I would bring documentation on what you find radiators for to tech and explain your case.  That is the best answer I can give now without discussing with the rest of the BOD.  I can tell you I did not vote for this change as I thought what we had in place for 2020 was great.  

 

The intent was to make changing to some of these radiators less costly for the people to go out and buy a brand new OEM radiator.  

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2 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Why haven't I seen this being used insanely? Seems like there are many people on this forum that could build lots of go-fast-parts for free?

Seems like a decent fabricator with plenty of time could go bananas.

 

(I struggle with repurpose fender flares, so I am not that person). 

I have avoided doing this out of principle. I think it’s a rule that needs to go away and I don’t want to utilize it. Had some of this stuff on the car through 2017 but it’s been removed. I’m fine with repurpose unless it’s a fixed value item, for that I am of the opinion that it should be the set number of points no matter where it came from. 

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20 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I have avoided doing this out of principle. I think it’s a rule that needs to go away and I don’t want to utilize it. Had some of this stuff on the car through 2017 but it’s been removed. I’m fine with repurpose unless it’s a fixed value item, for that I am of the opinion that it should be the set number of points no matter where it came from. 

Here's my thoughts...

I agree that if you are completely fabricating a part on the FV list, it should be points. But if you are using material to improve or modify and existing part, within reason, it should be either materials or repurposed. I don't see a problem with using repurposed materials for fender flares or canards. I see a big problem with using repurposed materials to make a 10 point wing or splitter. To me, there is a sort of line in the sand. 

And I was pretty surprised that although that language was removed last year, it's being allowed in the series. 

 

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Ouch.  Since we can't use a 3-row Contour SVT radiator (no longer produced), and the aftermarket doesn't much support contours (surprise!), and we have ford's brilliant 'pressurize the overflow bottle' type of cooling system where our radiator installs from underneath so we can't even use a real radiator cap (without completely chopping the radiator core apart), we went ahead and used the 2x rule to buy an knock-off aluminum radiator made for a mondeo from britain for a whopping $270. (how's that for a run-on sentence?)

 

But now, the extra 20 points take us to 449 points, so we've got about 51 points left to take our contour from bottom 10% to, well, maybe mid pack?  I'm running out of money and motivation to try and make this car faster.  We've knocked nearly 10 seconds a lap off our Sebring times since 2016 but haven't managed to move out of the 10 slowest cars (by fastest best lap).

 

I'll pay the extra twenty points before I pay MORE money and sink MORE time into installing a customized generic ebay radiator that is 'free.'

 

Oh well, we still get to drive on the racetrack.  It seems like we need to stop looking for more speed and just concentrate on enjoying the track time.

Edited by krispykritter
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The new radiator rule would have been fine if the 10 point option was left in place. Now there is no middle ground... By trying to reduce spending, legacy teams will have to spend money to conform to the rule.

Edited by Wink
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Yeah, the wording for this rule appears to screw a lot of teams who had reasonable solutions for a radiator and now they are going to have to change what really shouldn't have needed to be changed. But the BMWs sure do benefit. 

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16 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. OE stands for original equipment. OE parts are the components of the vehicle as it's made in the factory – all of the original parts that the car was first built with. ... OEM parts are created for specific makes and models, and approved by the automaker, to fit in the car.

 

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacture - assembly line part.  OES is Original Equipment Service - OE replacement part (think AC Delco or Motorcraft AFTER a car is 10 years old).  Aftermarket is a part made by an auto parts company that MAY or MAY NOT be an OEM or OES supplier.

 

Trust me, this is my everyday world....

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23 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Yeah, the wording for this rule appears to screw a lot of teams who had reasonable solutions for a radiator and now they are going to have to change what really shouldn't have needed to be changed. But the BMWs sure do benefit. 

No BMW team is affected by this rule. We all run OE spec Nissens or EBay radiators. BMWs don’t have cooling issues relating to the radiators.

 

And I don’t see anyone changing to a different radiator because of this change. Because again, we don’t have cooling issues.

 

Maybe I’m just speaking for myself here. I have run the same Nissens OE spec radiator for 3 years now. 

Edited by enginerd
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Nice, my Mishimoto rad with the lifetime warranty went from 10 pts to 30 pts. 

 

Does anyone have a good reason for this change? Was there a specific car or team that was getting a large enough advantage to justify penalizing others that weren't?

Edited by mender
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It’s fun to talk about these parts that you *could* make in a crucible with leftover sheet metal. But nobody actually is and I think it detracts form productive conversation. 
I’ll eat a piece of my shorts the day someone shows up with a legit upgrade part made from melting and casting another piece of their car which couldn’t be accomplished in a different, much easier, way. 

Edited by enginerd
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18 minutes ago, mender said:

Nice, my Mishimoto rad with the lifetime warranty went from 10 pts to 30 pts. 

 

Does anyone have a good reason for this change? Was there a specific car or team that was getting a large enough advantage to justify penalizing others that weren't?

I have the same question.  My 10 pt radiator in my Miata now went to 30 points.   I don’t understand.  Also an OE equivalent part is $130.  Doesn’t get you much.  Yes I know there are $99 ones on eBay.  I doubt the quality is any good.  Either way I have to buy a new one now.  I was good with paying the 10 points.    If we are really talking OE parts then the price is $420.07 ($373.32 with the Mazda motorsports discount) and then I am ok with it.  

Edited by etoy
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This is all I can find for my very niche car (which I might actually finish building this year): 

 

rad1.thumb.jpg.07187eb5002c342aa302581f19fa1adb.jpg

 

rad2.thumb.jpg.7ab55b6dede2e18f4e8cae5daaf85fd1.jpg

 

These are the only options I have found ranging from not available to $1030 and not available.

Looks like C&R for me!

 

In all honesty I feel like it would be good to just make the rule as follows:

<=$300 radiator - 0 points

>$300 radiator - 30 points

 

...or just go back to the old rule

 

 

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