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Let's talk alternators shall we? I don't think I've seen this yet.

 

If I find a lightweight "racing" alternator (or even an OE-style alternator) that comes with what would otherwise be an underdrive pulley is the whole thing free or do I still pay points for the pulley?

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We actually will be addressing a couple of technical issues.  This is why we release the rules before they become effective.  The wisdom of the masses has us reconsidering a few things.  We appreciate

Why cant we just get rid of points for anything that makes the car more reliable but doesn’t make it any faster.     Lets say my cars vpi is 500pts.  I want to put a better radiator on it to

Just wanted to add a note to address a few things I have seen come up already.   As the Tech Writer, the fact that the tech desk is not updated at this time is 100% on me, and I apologize fo

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19 minutes ago, gavro said:

Let's talk alternators shall we? I don't think I've seen this yet.

 

If I find a lightweight "racing" alternator (or even an OE-style alternator) that comes with what would otherwise be an underdrive pulley is the whole thing free or do I still pay points for the pulley?

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20 minutes ago, gavro said:

Let's talk alternators shall we? I don't think I've seen this yet.

 

If I find a lightweight "racing" alternator (or even an OE-style alternator) that comes with what would otherwise be an underdrive pulley is the whole thing free or do I still pay points for the pulley?

I want to know why alternators are now free. 
For what reason is this needed? Also, did anyone make an alternator petition? I didn’t see one. Did the board want this changed? @E. Tyler Pedersen @Jer

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Just now, enginerd said:

I want to know why alternators are now free. 
For what reason is this needed? Also, did anyone make an alternator petition? I didn’t see one. Did the board want this changed? @E. Tyler Pedersen @Jer

 

Tech desk had them at 5 points in February then in September they were free so we voted on the alternators and starters to be on the FPV list or free list.  The majority BOD went with free points.

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

I’ll eat a piece of my shorts the day someone shows up with a legit upgrade part made from melting and casting another piece of their car which couldn’t be accomplished in a different, much easier, way. 

This really isn't much of a challenge unless you'd agree to eat a piece of somebody else's shorts. 

Change your terms and we'll consider firing up the backyard foundry. 

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1 minute ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Tech desk had them at 5 points in February then in September they were free so we voted on the alternators and starters to be on the FPV list or free list.  The majority BOD went with free points.

 

OK, I'll just come right out and say it - that was really dumb. You had this mostly unassuming thing sitting out there at 5 points that a team with 5 points to spare could look at and say "should I go with that fancy alternator or should I make myself some dive planes [or other helpful item that can be made with ~5 points of material]? Hmmm, decisions decisions..."

 

Now everybody has to go out and buy a stupid expensive fancy alternator to keep up with the big spenders.

 

Perfect example of what everyone is complaining about.

 

(I'm not even going to address the fact that the GBU build seems to be what drove the alternator cost to zero)

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31 minutes ago, gavro said:

Let's talk alternators shall we? I don't think I've seen this yet.

 

If I find a lightweight "racing" alternator (or even an OE-style alternator) that comes with what would otherwise be an underdrive pulley is the whole thing free or do I still pay points for the pulley?

 

Good question..

 

Quote

I am going to swap an alternator on my car. I hear that they are free now.

TO be clear, the alternator I am installing has a pulley on it. The pulley on the non-OE alternator is not the same as the OE pulley on the OE alternator.

This pulley is LARGER than the pulley on the stock alternator, effectively under-driving it.

The larger pulley reduces drag from the alternator on the driveline.

What is the point value for this?

Quote
Single pully five points and multiple pullies are 10 points

Jay Mauney

 

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15 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Tech desk had them at 5 points in February then in September they were free so we voted on the alternators and starters to be on the FPV list or free list.  The majority BOD went with free points.

 

Free in September?  so another rule was changed mid-season for a certain car?

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12 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Tech desk had them at 5 points in February then in September they were free so we voted on the alternators and starters to be on the FPV list or free list.  The majority BOD went with free points.

Yes, but WHY?

In September they were free....how? How did tech desk 5 points become free?

I just don’t see a reason here other than “some big spender put an aftermarket alternator on his car and didn’t claim it for the 5 points and we didn’t want to bump him to 505 points”.

 

Radiator change: petition was made, there are arguments about the benefits of changing the way radiators are valued / not valued. 
Shock change: same deal

Alternator change: ???  
 

Nobody on the forum was asking for free alternators. Nobody has publicly come forward to say “my car can’t get an OE spec alternator, can that be added to the 2x rule?”.

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32 minutes ago, gavro said:

 

OK, I'll just come right out and say it - that was really dumb. You had this mostly unassuming thing sitting out there at 5 points that a team with 5 points to spare could look at and say "should I go with that fancy alternator or should I make myself some dive planes [or other helpful item that can be made with ~5 points of material]? Hmmm, decisions decisions..."

 

Now everybody has to go out and buy a stupid expensive fancy alternator to keep up with the big spenders.

 

Perfect example of what everyone is complaining about.

 

(I'm not even going to address the fact that the GBU build seems to be what drove the alternator cost to zero)

 

20 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

Free in September?  so another rule was changed mid-season for a certain car?

 

18 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Yes, but WHY?

In September they were free....how? How did tech desk 5 points become free?

I just don’t see a reason here other than “some big spender put an aftermarket alternator on his car and didn’t claim it for the 5 points and we didn’t want to bump him to 505 points”.

 

Radiator change: petition was made, there are arguments about the benefits of changing the way radiators are valued / not valued. 
Shock change: same deal

Alternator change: ???  
 

Nobody on the forum was asking for free alternators. Nobody has publicly come forward to say “my car can’t get an OE spec alternator, can that be added to the 2x rule?”.

 

 

I voted for alternators to be 5 points, I was not in the majority.  I don't know how tech desk points became free.  They were points in February then switched to free in September.  I also have a problem with it and don't understand how this did not go through.  I sent a letter to TAC, tech and the BOD about some of these issues.  The Tech Desk was suppose to be somewhere that Tech could look at interpretations during the year.  They should be able to reference back decisions that were made.  This is why we also have the knowledge base.  I do not know how something can be points then free in the same year.  

 

As a BOD we felt that we could put everything on the FPV instead of looking at the 2x rules.  Dealer pricers were being considered instead of national retailers per the BCCR.  This is at least what I was told.  I don't have a first hand experience.  There were multiple 2x petitions and what we should do with it.  We went to the TAC and asked for their opinion on the 2x rule and how we should value it on the FPV list.  We provided them with what we were thinking and they came back with some ideas and we approved items based on our discussions. 

 

Honestly I cannot keep up with the tech desk since I have a full time job.  TAC helps out with some of those items and things get brought to the attention of TAC if Tech needs help.  

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the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

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8 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

It would work if we all followed the guidelines.

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8 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

 

The open tickets are great! Saved me some headaches.

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38 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

I thought it was @LuckyKidthat submitted 2 billion tickets, not you @Bill Strong

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44 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

You did great work with the tech desk. Tech / management created the monster by saying “yes” so many times.

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

 

It was a good idea until Tech abused it and tried writing their own rule set for teams they like.   It was/is being used as a backdoor way of creating rules.   The IRS and alternators situations are perfect examples.    Tech desk rulings were changed when certain teams inquired.   I even wrote a petition to bring it to the BOD's attention as I saw what was going on.    

Edited by Snake
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All these free parts are making my off season shopping list longer and longer. If I ever want to get out of the middle of the pack I'll be spending thousands on a 300 point car and still be at 300 points. Then a few thousand more to get to 500 points. If we wreck, I can't afford to build another car. 

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13 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

All these free parts are making my off season shopping list longer and longer. If I ever want to get out of the middle of the pack I'll be spending thousands on a 300 point car and still be at 300 points. Then a few thousand more to get to 500 points. If we wreck, I can't afford to build another car. 

I feel ya.  Just rebuilt my car with more horsepuppies after destroying it.  Probably still be under 500 pts...

 

Actually, I'm hoping for strict interpretation and be right at 500 pts.  We will see.  

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30 minutes ago, hcsi99 said:

Are aluminum coolant surge tanks still points?  Asking for a friend. 

Not added to the 2021 BCCR so the tech desk ruling stands

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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

the tech desk was not supposed to be a second rulebook. it was supposed to be a paper trail for tech issues and questions so that we did not have hidden emails.
I would like to apologize for this. I did not mean for it to become this monster. I was trying to fix one issue, and created 2 billion more.

 

You should show up to RA in a Dr Frankenstein costume.  We can rename the Tech Desk Bill strong's monster.

 

Seriously though.  Many of us thought the tech desk would help resolve issues instead of creating new ones.  No one blames you for them.

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BTW- I put the petition through for zero point radiators. I did not put the petition to say that radiators that need points be pushed to 30. My petition was simply to get an aluminum radiator of the same size and capacity as stock for zero points to keep costs in check. How it got rewritten to what it is now and how the pointed rad went from 10 to 30 baffles me. 10 points is fine to me for an alum rad that is much larger than stock. If you need that much cooling you did other items and should pay the points. The problem I saw, and I have, is that a stock rad is mega money from Toyota and now Toyota has stopped making them. I can not get a stock radiator anymore so what do I do? A cheap ebay alum rad is my only real option.

 

Here is what was written for my petition.

Propose a solution or revised rule: *

If you use an aluminum radiator as the same basic size and capacity as stock then it should be zero points.

 

I still wonder how that went to this below. The price is really irrelevant because if it is the same size and capacity then it should work as stock, +/- enough that it does not matter. My stock rad has never overheated, even at NCM 107F July a few years ago so I know it is all good. I just can not buy a new one and my current one is 5+ years old and due to be replaced.

 

Then the rule reads.

Radiator- Any radiator, regardless of materials of construction, is permitted to 0 points permitting it is equal to or less than the cost of a stock replacement that is available Online by a nationally recognized auto parts retail chain. (i.e. - Napa, Autozone, O'riley, Advanced, etc.) Champcar reserves the right to go Online and inspect retail prices.

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