New rules are out...

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

3 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

BTW- I put the petition through for zero point radiators. I did not put the petition to say that radiators that need points be pushed to 30. My petition was simply to get an aluminum radiator of the same size and capacity as stock for zero points to keep costs in check. How it got rewritten to what it is now and how the pointed rad went from 10 to 30 baffles me. 10 points is fine to me for an alum rad that is much larger than stock. If you need that much cooling you did other items and should pay the points. The problem I saw, and I have, is that a stock rad is mega money from Toyota and now Toyota has stopped making them. I can not get a stock radiator anymore so what do I do? A cheap ebay alum rad is my only real option.

 

Here is what was written for my petition.

Propose a solution or revised rule: *

 

If you use an aluminum radiator as the same basic size and capacity as stock then it should be zero points.

 

 

I still wonder how that went to this below. The price is really irrelevant because if it is the same size and capacity then it should work as stock, +/- enough that it does not matter. My stock rad has never overheated, even at NCM 107F July a few years ago so I know it is all good. I just can not buy a new one and my current one is 5+ years old and due to be replaced.

 

Then the rule reads.

 

Radiator- Any radiator, regardless of materials of construction, is permitted to 0 points permitting it is equal to or less than the cost of a stock replacement that is available Online by a nationally recognized auto parts retail chain. (i.e. - Napa, Autozone, O'riley, Advanced, etc.) Champcar reserves the right to go Online and inspect retail prices.

 

Because the new rule is based on huggys petition.  Not yours....

 

You probably think this rule is about you, don't you.  Haha.

[BeastZ06 159]

6 hours ago, enginerd said:

It’s fun to talk about these parts that you *could* make in a crucible with leftover sheet metal. But nobody actually is and I think it detracts form productive conversation. 
I’ll eat a piece of my shorts the day someone shows up with a legit upgrade part made from melting and casting another piece of their car which couldn’t be accomplished in a different, much easier, way. 

 

4 hours ago, Snorman said:

This really isn't much of a challenge unless you'd agree to eat a piece of somebody else's shorts. 

Change your terms and we'll consider firing up the backyard foundry. 

 

 

This casting aluminum, looks so interesting. Backyard foundry, some hot coals from the BBQ or yard debris fire, a large cookie pan or oil drip pan and maybe even exhaust from the race car if the environment needs less oxygen. Free aluminum sheet materials!

[Team Infiniti 15,385]

7 minutes ago, BeastZ06 said:

 

 

 

This casting aluminum, looks so interesting. Backyard foundry, some hot coals from the BBQ or yard debris fire, a large cookie pan or oil drip pan and maybe even exhaust from the race car if the environment needs less oxygen. Free aluminum sheet materials!

Dare.

[MR2 Biohazard 1,420]

3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Because the new rule is based on huggys petition.  Not yours....

 

You probably think this rule is about you, don't you.  Haha.

I did think it was and I must have missed Chris's. My bad. We must have had two petitions for the same item and same basic thinking. I stand corrected then and I am sure you are happy to be the one to do it. Congrats, enjoy the day. I do not feel so bad now and totally blame Chris for all of this. Totally his fault, and Bill of course, just because.

 

I went back to look at the petitions and here is what it was.

Revised Rule: I suggest making radiators subject to the 1x rule. Rule XX-XX: Any radiator, regardless of materials of construction, is permitted at 0 points permitting it is equal to or less than the cost of a stock replacement that is available on-line by aa nationally recognized auto parts retail chain (i.e. - Napa, AutoZone, O’Reilly, Advanced, etc.). ChampCar reserves the right to go on-line and pull up retail prices

[55mini 753]

41 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Not added to the 2021 BCCR so the tech desk ruling stands

So help my thick head out here, the process as I understand this the tech desk is a help desk to get answers to questions and clarifications. Once thru the tech desk the BOD votes on that question and it then goes into the BCCR. I think I have that correct.

 

Now we are saying it did not make the 2012 BCCR but it is still a rule???? and stands as a tech desk answer.

 

What did I miss in this and how are we to understand the real rules? I have always followed the BCCR as written as the rule book.

[LuckyKid 906]

6 minutes ago, 55mini said:

So help my thick head out here, the process as I understand this the tech desk is a help desk to get answers to questions and clarifications. Once thru the tech desk the BOD votes on that question and it then goes into the BCCR. I think I have that correct.

 

Now we are saying it did not make the 2012 BCCR but it is still a rule???? and stands as a tech desk answer.

 

What did I miss in this and how are we to understand the real rules? I have always followed the BCCR as written as the rule book.

THE BOOK NEEDS TO BE SHORT BECAUSE SHORT IS THE SAME AS SIMPLE!

[Chris Huggins 3,367]

3 minutes ago, 55mini said:

So help my thick head out here, the process as I understand this the tech desk is a help desk to get answers to questions and clarifications. Once thru the tech desk the BOD votes on that question and it then goes into the BCCR. I think I have that correct.

 

Now we are saying it did not make the 2012 BCCR but it is still a rule???? and stands as a tech desk answer.

 

What did I miss in this and how are we to understand the real rules? I have always followed the BCCR as written as the rule book.

 

Yes, you have that correct, to my knowledge.

 

This is my opinion FWIW:

The disconnect is a time issue, which was compounded by the C19 thing.  Because of all that, it was Late August before the BOD meeting occurred, so it was basically a week before the initial deadline of Sept 1 for the 2021 BCCR.  So a compromise had to be made, and only some of the ~140 published tech desk articles were moved to the BCCR.  

 

Honestly, even with the release being pushed back 45 days, I still feel it was "rushed", and i'm sure that there are things we missed despite everyones best efforts - IE the radiator wording saying "OE" which is disputable.  

 

Almost everyone involved has full time jobs, so things happen slowly.  The reviewer/approvers are based across 4 time zones even.

[Grufton 200]

56 minutes ago, Huggy said:

...and only some of the ~140 published tech desk articles were moved to the BCCR.  

 

No mention of the UNpublished rulings however...

[enginerd 6,584]

1 hour ago, BeastZ06 said:

 

 

 

This casting aluminum, looks so interesting. Backyard foundry, some hot coals from the BBQ or yard debris fire, a large cookie pan or oil drip pan and maybe even exhaust from the race car if the environment needs less oxygen. Free aluminum sheet materials!

Congrats. Go turn it into something useful.

[mender 8,225]

 

[enginerd 6,584]

12 minutes ago, mender said:

 

I wouldn't put that thing anywhere near a race car.

Edited October 20, 2020 by enginerd

[mender 8,225]

3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I wouldn't put that thing anywhere near a race car.

That and a couple more gears and you can do active aero.

[TouchStone 14]

3 hours ago, mender said:

 

Isn’t this how eBay gets its parts?

[craig71188 306]

All this would be soooo much easier if we would just make it simple:

OEM replacement - FREE

OES replacement - FREE

Aftermarket replacement that matches OEM / OES - FREE

Aftermarket (not matching OE in form/fit/function) or Performance part replacement - POINTS

 

Items that have little relative speed advantage - 5 pts ea. (radiator / alternator / coolers / accusump)

Items that have more of a speed advantage 10 pts ea. (brakes / shocks / springs / FLARES)

 

Fight over the relative point value, but stop giving more stuff away!!!  How on earth a "budget" race series got to "FREE" 4 pot racing calipers I will never understand.

 

The fact that the probability of rolling back the gravy train is very low is the very reason I would love to see a redo of the classes including two open and two "limited prep" - BEFORE we run off all those that don't want to just keep spending to keep up with more "FREE" stuff.  

[JDChristianson 4,594]

11 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

THE BOOK NEEDS TO BE SHORT BECAUSE SHORT IS THE SAME AS SIMPLE!

short is also vague confusing and full of loopholes.  if you don't believe this go back and read about 27gillion posts in 10 gillion threads over the last 10 years.  

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by JDChristianson

[YoKramer 18]

22 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

Speaking as a competitor, what I have observed is this:

 

If your original ECU controlled ignition, you can switch to a new ECU for free and it will control ignition.  The remainder of the system stays stock though, whatever that consists of (coil pack(s), coil, igniter, etc)

 

Switching from a coil to coil on plug would invoke the 20 points for aftermarket ignition system.

If you go from a distributor to a msd box, you are upgrading the ignition system so thats 20 points.  You can switch from carb to EFI if you wish, and the ECU part of that conversion would be free, but the mechanical hardware parts would be points (intake, throttle body, etc whatever is needed)

 

Thats not an official answer, but I suspect its pretty close to what you would get based on what I have seen at the track

 

22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yep, you read it right.

 

This rule hasn't really changed.  It was just clarified.  

 

 

 

 

Seems backwards that adding a box to control spark in the MSD while leaving everything else stock is points but not a stand alone in a computer controlled car but it is what it is.

So follow up question then.

What about an RPM control box like this? Its only controlling the top of the rev range not the spark timing/intensity.

If this is better in the tech discussion with its own post Ill do that instead.
 

Edited October 20, 2020 by YoKramer

[turbogrill 503]

54 minutes ago, craig71188 said:

 

 

Fight over the relative point value, but stop giving more stuff away!!!  How on earth a "budget" race series got to "FREE" 4 pot racing calipers I will never understand.

 

 

It's always been free with the wilwoods? (except 1 point for a bracket)

[Jer 3,411]

17 hours ago, enginerd said:

I want to know why alternators are now free. 
For what reason is this needed? Also, did anyone make an alternator petition? I didn’t see one. Did the board want this changed? @E. Tyler Pedersen @Jer

No performance advantage and very hard if not impossible to know if it's stock or not.  

[karman1970 979]

27 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

It's always been free with the wilwoods? (except 1 point for a bracket)

Nope. That was a new rule within the last couple years.  For a long time it was simply 2x.  Not sure what it was before that.  Probably a point for every dollar over stock replacement cost.

[Chris Huggins 3,367]

58 minutes ago, YoKramer said:

 

 

 

Seems backwards that adding a box to control spark in the MSD while leaving everything else stock is points but not a stand alone in a computer controlled car but it is what it is.

So follow up question then.

What about an RPM control box like this? Its only controlling the top of the rev range not the spark timing/intensity.

If this is better in the tech discussion with its own post Ill do that instead.
 

 

You would be best served to submit a tech desk ticket (or tickets) and get an official answer.  

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

42 minutes ago, Jer said:

No performance advantage and very hard if not impossible to know if it's stock or not.  

 

When did they become free?  because per tech desk articles i have says 5 points and bracket is charged as materials as of the beginning of 2020.

Edited October 20, 2020 by MoparBoyy

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

56 minutes ago, Jer said:

No performance advantage and very hard if not impossible to know if it's stock or not.  

Ummm....  why would somebody change it then?

 

An obvious non stock alternator is not hard to tech.  If it looks stock or stockish, fine.  If it looks like a racing style alternator, points.

 

This wasn't an issue until Riley showed up with one.  Why make a new ruling because 1 team asked for it?

[enginerd 6,584]

1 hour ago, Jer said:

No performance advantage [of an aftermarket alternator]

Sure there is. You can make it lighter than stock by under sizing since you won’t have the need for sound system / HVAC / nav. Also use better / lighter materials / design. I bet there are some frictional loss advantages to be had as well. If you throw money at something, you can make it better. 
 

@Black Magic, what alternators do you have on the NASCARs? I bet it isn’t something you can buy from a NAPA. 

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

Just now, enginerd said:

Sure there is. You can make it lighter than stock by under sizing since you won’t have the need for sound system / HVAC / nav. Also use better / lighter materials / design. I bet there are some frictional loss advantages to be had as well. If you throw money at something, you can make it better. 
 

@Black Magic, what alternators do you have on the NASCARs? I bet it isn’t something you can buy from a NAPA. 

 

you could also underdrive it.  you have to pay points for underdrive pulley but somehow alternator pulleys are free now?

[55mini 753]

1 hour ago, Jer said:

No performance advantage and very hard if not impossible to know if it's stock or not.  

Jer this is totally incorrect statement in both cases, the mini race alternator can be seen from 100 ft and it is a change to performance. Spins easily and less weight and under driven pulley. Anything that changes any level of performance should be points.