VPI Table and Weights Redlines

[Chris Huggins]

It came to my attention today that the published 2021 VPI table contains red cells, but those cells have nothing to do with changes from Q4 2020 to 2021, so I made some easier to interpret versions. 

 

These are unofficial!

No Champcar BOD, Tech, or Staff have reviewed. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

No Guarantees, this is probably not completely accurate or accurately complete.

Ok, with that out of the way.

 

 

 

These are the weight changes I found:

Make	Model	Year	VPI	Curb	Champ Q4 2020	Champ 2021		Change in Weight
Dodge	Neon (DOHC/Magnum)	1995	250	2212	2380	2458		78
Dodge	Neon (DOHC/Magnum)	1996	250	2212	2380	2458		78
Dodge	Neon (DOHC/Magnum)	1997	250	2212	2399	2458		59
Dodge	Neon (DOHC/Magnum)	1998	250	2212	2399	2458		59
Dodge	Neon (DOHC/Magnum)	1999	250	2212	2399	2458		59
Dodge	Neon (SOHC)	1995	200	2212	2380	2458		78
Dodge	Neon (SOHC)	1996	200	2212	2380	2458		78
Dodge	Neon (SOHC)	1997	200	2212	2399	2458		59
Dodge	Neon (SOHC)	1998	200	2212	2399	2458		59
Dodge	Neon (SOHC)	1999	200	2212	2399	2458		59
Nissan	240SX	1989	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1990	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1991	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1992	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1993	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1994	350	2547	2870	2830		-40
Nissan	240SX	1995	350	2547	2753	2830		77
Nissan	240SX	1996	350	2547	2753	2830		77
Nissan	240SX	1997	350	2547	2862	2830		-32
Nissan	240SX	1998	350	2547	2862	2830		-32
Pontiac	Fiero	1984	150	2512	2462	2791		329
Pontiac	Fiero	1985	150	2512	2462	2791		329
Pontiac	Fiero	1986	150	2512	2462	2791		329

 

 

VPI Table Early:

BMW E36/5 318ti 95-99 was added at 350 

Chevy Camaro 6cyl 96-97 raised from 250 to 325

Chevy Camaro 6cyl 98 reduced from 350 to 325

Chevy Corvette Pre-80 - 82 (C3) raised from 150 to 300

Dodge Neon (DOHC/Magnum) 95-99 reduced from 250 to 225

Mustang Cobra 94-95 raised from 300 to 350

Infinity I30-I35 re-named to Infinity I30 A32 (VQ30DE) 96-99 and raised from 350 to 425

Lexus IS200 Removed 

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution removed

Nissan Maxima separated by engine now:  Maxima J30 (VG30E), Maxima J30 (VG30DE), and Maxima A32 (VQ30DE)

 Year Pre-80 - 91 are unchanged

 Year 92-93 Unchanged for VG30E.  Raised from 350-400 for VG30DE

 Year 94 Unchanged for VG30DE.  Reduced from 400-350 for VG30E

 Year 95-99 raised from 400 to 425

Pontiac Firebird 6cyl 98 reduced from 350 to 325

Pontiac Firebird 6cyl 96-97 raised from 250 to 325

Pontiac Firebird 6cyl 93-94 raised from 200 to 250

Toyota Hilux re-named Pickup

VW Beetle/SuperBeetle 80-99 removed

 

 

VPI Table Late:

Acura TL Type S added 2004-2008 at 500

Audi TT FWD 00-02 reduced from 475 to 375

Audi TT FWD 03-06 reduced from 475 to 400

Audi TT Quattro 00 reduced from 475 to 415

Audi TT Quattro 01-02 reduced from 475 to 425

Audi TT Quattro 03-06 reduced from 520 to 435

Audi TT VR6 03-06 reduced from 540 to 485

Lexus IS200 Removed

Infinity I30-I35 separated into I30 A33 (VQ30DE-K) and I30 A33 (VQ35DE)

 Year 00-01 reduced from 475 to 450

 Year 02-04 reduced from 500 to 490

Mazda RX8 04-08 reduced from 510 to 480

Nissan Z33 08-10 added at 540

Nissan Maxima separated by engine now:  Maxima A33 (VQ30DE-K), Maxima A33 (VQ35DE), and Maxima A34 (VQ35D)

 Year 02-03 raised from 500 to 515

 Year 04-06 raised from 500 to 510

 Year 07 and 08 removed

Toyota Corona removed

 

Notes* 

Plymouth Neon still at 250 for 95-99

Camaro and Firebird were different before, but align now.

 

 

Whew. 4 hours of work to figure that out.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Huggy

[thewheelerZ]

Id love to know what the justification on raising the VQ35 Maxima up to 515 is, especially if comparing to an SE-R Altima at 505 with nearly identical drivetrain and weight, but with 2 gallons of extra fuel and IRS (as opposed to the garbage rear beam axle in the Maxima).

 

Im all for raising values on cars to try and slow the field and id be happy to try to make up laps on slower cars, but considering this was the only car to be raised above 500, whats up with that? 15 points added is two laps in this scenario, no idea how that was justified, and would love to hear.

 

Thanks for sifting through those @Huggy

[Snorman]

lololol...I guess TAC's calculator only figured that the '94-'95 Cobra needed to be raised. Not any other Mustangs. And of course the only SN95 Mustang to ever be on the podium in the series. Ever. 

That's a pretty transparent statement and message heard loud and clear, BOD and TAC. 

[QuaTTro]

if the weights are incorrect for my car, what is the process for getting them corrected?  In my case it's showing my car is 250-300 lighter than reality (stock and as-raced are incorrect.

[enginerd]

@Huggy wasn't it said in the BoD meeting that "weight" was the wrong term, and something like "performance factor" would be used? Did I imagine that?

[Ron_e]

2 hours ago, Snorman said:

lololol...I guess TAC's calculator only figured that the '94-'95 Cobra needed to be raised. Not any other Mustangs. And of course the only SN95 Mustang to ever be on the podium in the series. Ever. 

That's a pretty transparent statement and message heard loud and clear, BOD and TAC. 

 

50 points, well it is deserved when you win every race by five laps because that is what has been happening isn't it?  What are those words again - it has been proven competitive so it deserves points.  Who wants to have a race when you can win before the race.

[Snorman]

4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

50 points, well it is deserved when you win every race by five laps because that is what has been happening isn't it?  What are those words again - it has been proven competitive so it deserves points.  Who wants to have a race when you can win before the race.

I missed the races that we win by 5 laps. We already take 2 extra pit stops in a 14 hour race, which is already at least a 4-lap penalty. But I think message being sent it pretty clear and we hear it, especially when after being targeted for the past 2 years we are the only Mustang that gets an increase. 

Of course, there can't be other cars on the podium. Must maintain the status quo, and it's been getting shaken up lately so time to restore it. 

[Chris Huggins]

7 hours ago, enginerd said:

@Huggy wasn't it said in the BoD meeting that "weight" was the wrong term, and something like "performance factor" would be used? Did I imagine that?

You are correct, but a year behind

 

This was approved in April 2019

Quote

Identify the issue, as you perceive it:
The swap formula in the BCCR - It defines one variable as "weight", and elaborates to
indicate that the value is "the advertised vehicle curb weight minus 10%"
See 4.5.2 through 4.5.2.3
The use of "weight" and the further definition of what that weight is, constrain
TECH/TAC/BOD to make adjustments.
It has been the source of endless debate on the internet.
- 10% isn't fair for some cars
- This car's value is wrong
- It doesn't approximate race-weight
It has also been the cause of multiple issues relating to changing the base VPI of a car in
order to make the swap formula work for a specific instance.
Identify, if possible, your understanding of why the current rule or process was initiated and put
into place:
This was a good starting point. The swap formula, based on a power-to-weight limit,
needed some starting point to work from.
Propose a solution or revised rule:
Re-Write 4.5.2.1 as "Swap Performance Value" or SPV.
A cars "SPV" is equal to its current "weight" value in ChampCar’s database.
Provide a list of the positive changes and/or rationale for implementing the proposed solution
or revised rule:
In the future, a particular swapped chassis can be "nerfed" or "boosted" by adjusting the
"SPV" value, without affecting the value of the non-swapped chassis. A particular swap
combination can be allowed or disallowed by careful adjustment of a SPV, without
affecting the VPI of the base vehicle and without causing endless debate online about
some under-the-table dealings or conspiracy.
This will effectively break the facsimile that the weight in the swap formula needs to
match some internet value of curb weight -10%, actual raced weight, or some value in
between. In reality, those numbers mean nothing if the racing is close and one
combination is not dominating.
This provides ChampCar with the ability to make adjustments as necessary to maintain
the balance and parity between swapped and non-swapped cars, without being tied to a
specific requirement.
This provides flexibility where none is now. It also does so while keeping a short and
concise rule book.
Teams are still free to petition for adjustments, but now the basis of evidence will be
proven performance ability with a particular combination and not irrelevant internet
statistics.

 

Which resulted in one change in the BCCR, and sadly it did not meet the intent.

 

2019 wording

4.5.2.1. “weight” is the advertised vehicle curb weight
minus 10%.

 

2020 wording

4.5.2.1. “weight” refers to the ChampCar Swap
Performance Value of that make and model,
as determined by ChampCar.

 

 

"Weight" was left in the actual formula

IF[16 - (weight / (HP + hpAdd) ) > 0 ]
THEN [ 0.032 * (16 - (weight / (HP + hpAdd))) ^6] + 50
ELSE + 50

 

As well as left in the title of the .CSV that allows for manual swap HP calculations without use of the website.

[YoKramer]

Just a heads up @Huggy you have the 240 information backwards.

[Chris Huggins]

12 minutes ago, YoKramer said:

Just a heads up @Huggy you have the 240 information backwards.

 

 

didnt you read the disclaimer?  Haha

 

Thanks, they were all backwards.  The OP has been corrected now.  So everyone's weight went up except for the S13 and kouki s14s

[enginerd]

+150 on the c3 corvette... that’s heavy. Combined with the unclaimed parts that they had (which one hopes will be added when they next tech) AND 150 fewer points to play with, GBU will have to take off a lot of stuff.

Edited October 22, 2020 by enginerd

[karman1970]

I bet they don't lose much speed at all.  I'm sure they threw some stuff on it they didn't really need in the inevitable event the VPI got increased.  That's what I would have done.  I could be completely wrong, too

[Ron_e]

On 10/22/2020 at 4:48 AM, Snorman said:

I missed the races that we win by 5 laps. We already take 2 extra pit stops in a 14 hour race, which is already at least a 4-lap penalty. But I think message being sent it pretty clear and we hear it, especially when after being targeted for the past 2 years we are the only Mustang that gets an increase. 

Of course, there can't be other cars on the podium. Must maintain the status quo, and it's been getting shaken up lately so time to restore it. 

 

I guess it is a fine line between being fair and sending a message.

 

Option 1.  We are being fair so all podium cars are moved up by a percentage of their distance to 500 or minimum 10 points because in general they are putting laps on the rest of the field.

Option 2.  We just do not want Fox cars on the podium so we keep doing something about it.

 

Back in the old days Fox cars used to be 10-15% or more of the field, still are in other series at the same tracks, now only a couple of teams are brave enough to bring them.  Shocking (or intentional) that the astute TAC keep missing the early big tank Camaro at 150 points, lowered the big tank Corvette by 350, missed other podium cars, but they are laser focused on Fox cars.  Maybe it is a fat line between being fair and sending a message.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Ron_e

[morganf]

On 10/22/2020 at 8:40 AM, Huggy said:

 

didnt you read the disclaimer?  Haha

 

Thanks, they were all backwards.  The OP has been corrected now.  So everyone's weight went up except for the S13 and kouki s14s

Doh, we already had our 235hp VQ35 swap planned out, thanks a lot!

[Gearhead_42]

Oh FFS, again with boning my car.  Guess it's a good thing I never finished up that VQ30 swap, I'd be stripping it back out anyway.

 

Back to the drawing board!

 

On 10/22/2020 at 8:40 AM, Huggy said:

  So everyone's weight went up except for the S13 and kouki s14s

 

[morganf]

22 hours ago, Gearhead_42 said:

Oh FFS, again with boning my car.  Guess it's a good thing I never finished up that VQ30 swap, I'd be stripping it back out anyway.

 

Back to the drawing board!

 

 

Lol um yes finish it, VQ30 swap went from 56pts(2019) to 60pts(2021), whats the issue?

Edited October 26, 2020 by morganf

[Gearhead_42]

8 minutes ago, morganf said:

Lol um yes finish it, VQ30 swap went from 56pts(2020) to 50pts(2021), whats the issue?

Old weight 2870, new weight 2830?  Points go "up", for the same 190 horses.

 

I make it 60 points... and I was already going to be one lap down.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gearhead_42

[morganf]

12 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

Old weight 2870, new weight 2830?  Points go "up", for the same 190 horses.

Edit see this is wrong now. I didn't under stand the two column thing though we were going from 2583 to 2830. New swap is indeed 60pts, you are doing it wrong if you turn around an entire swap over 4pts either way.

Sounds like you just need to make a free airdam or sideskirts out of reused material and remove the coil overs.

Edited October 26, 2020 by morganf

[Ron_e]

Now I understand the Cobra being raised 50 and the hints of raises coming for other V8 cars.  I think Mike was the only holdout for keeping the V8 cars where they were, should be some big increases coming now, but only if they have been proven competitive because we can't be having them on the podium - ha.

[Snorman]

36 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

Now I understand the Cobra being raised 50 and the hints of raises coming for other V8 cars.  I think Mike was the only holdout for keeping the V8 cars where they were, should be some big increases coming now, but only if they have been proven competitive because we can't be having them on the podium - ha.

Pretty much. Despite the fact that the lap times are consistent with other well built and driven cars, at least one very outspoken TAC member has a desire to raise these cars because our car doesn't fit the narrative they have tried to spin to change the structure of the series. We're an outlier because we actually make it to the podium unlike just about every other D class car out there. 

[Ron_e]

If big tank cars are being increased there is one big tank car that has been proven competitive for many years and many races - the E30 is definitely a big tank car relative to its stock engine size.  This will be really entertaining.

[jakks]

1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

If big tank cars are being increased there is one big tank car that has been proven competitive for many years and many races - the E30 is definitely a big tank car relative to its stock engine size.  This will be really entertaining.

If an e30 is a big tank car then the 944 is a gigantic tank car. 

[turbogrill]

What about audi tt vr6? 250hp and 17 gallons? At 480pts?

 

Sounds like something that could be fun and fast?

 

Edit:

I think the tank 14.5 gal, its 17 for a different generation. So probably severely fuel limited. Still fun!

Edited October 31, 2020 by turbogrill

[turbogrill]

And the 2005 Golf base model had a 2.5 5cylinder (150hp), says 4 cylinder in the table. Wonder if that is a mistake and don't have the 5cyl in the table.

 

That car really likes a new intake and a tune (same engine as the lambo engine!)

 

14.5 gal and almost 200bhp for 400pts (350+50pts intake)!

[QuaTTro]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

And the 2005 Golf base model had a 2.5 5cylinder (150hp), says 4 cylinder in the table. Wonder if that is a mistake and don't have the 5cyl in the table.

are you sure the 2005 Golf had a 2.5 ?