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2 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Right so there are certain tires that do not meet the rules due to tread wear.  If you start banning RE71rs or Rivals or a Cooper because they are 1 to 2 second a lap faster then you're putting yourself into a spec series.  This is me with my Board hat on.  I take my Board hat off.  I am running RS4s as well.  I don't run the "hot" tire.  I would rather try to find a way for teams to run this tire and be competitive still but harder for them to manage tire wear during the race versus coming in and slapping on a new set every other pit stop.  

 

I'm still not sure I understand the distinction.    Sorry, not trying to be difficult, I just want to understand the viewpoint.

 

Ill provide an example:

 

Toyo offers R888R in a 235/50/15 that could work on my car.  Say these could be found cheaply as takeoffs from some other race series.  What makes this tire "banned" but a RE71R's not?  Id gander the RE71 is just as fast on track.  The only distinction is the arbitrary UTQG rating on one is >180 and the other is <180.

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How on earth could CCES have a rule that says: 4.7.1 Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher and must not appear on the exclusion list. 4.7.2 Tires Exclusion:

There are many ways to approach the tire situation, but many just don't work out well for our series. 1) Tire exclusion list: too many changes, too much maintenance, there's always a "new hot tir

WRL is different because there is no minimum time on pit stops. Every second spent changing tires is seconds you aren’t turning laps. In ChampCar if you can change tires within the 5 minutes, there is

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1 minute ago, Huggy said:

 

I'm still not sure I understand the distinction.    Sorry, not trying to be difficult, I just want to understand the viewpoint.

 

Ill provide an example:

 

Toyo offers R888R in a 235/50/15 that could work on my car.  Say these could be found cheaply as takeoffs from some other race series.  What makes this tire "banned" but a RE71R's not?  Id gander the RE71 is just as fast on track.  The only distinction is the arbitrary UTQG rating on one is >180 and the other is <180.

 

Toyo R888R is seen as a race tire where all the RE71s look like a high performance summer tire/stock type tire.  That is at least how I view them.  

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1 minute ago, Huggy said:

 

I'm still not sure I understand the distinction.    Sorry, not trying to be difficult, I just want to understand the viewpoint.

 

Ill provide an example:

 

Toyo offers R888R in a 235/50/15 that could work on my car.  Say these could be found cheaply as takeoffs from some other race series.  What makes this tire "banned" but a RE71R's not?  Id gander the RE71 is just as fast on track.  The only distinction is the arbitrary UTQG rating on one is >180 and the other is <180.

 

Or "dual branded" tires, where they change the label to enlarge the market. Auto x guys know what I am talking about, having legal and non legal versions of the same tire that simply have a update to the mold stamping.

 

Ahh, bringing back memories of the "street touring" classes 

 

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7 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Toyo R888R is seen as a race tire where all the RE71s look like a high performance summer tire/stock type tire.  That is at least how I view them.  

They are cross shopped all the time.  RE71R are known as more of an "autox" tire, easier to over heat and wear out, vs the toyos.  

 

 

http://racetrackdriving.com/tech/tire-review/bridgestone-re-71r/head-to-head/

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Shortening the min pit stop time to less than 5 minutes would also limit the effectiveness of running a quicker tire with shorter life (while also reducing the penalty on cars that can't go 2 hours on fuel)

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I think it comes down to the current rules and where the UTQG treadwear number line is drawn.

 

The Toyo R888R and Nitto NT01 are older tires (relatively) compared to many of the "hot" 200 treadwear class now. Some of the newer 200s are faster than the Toyo and Nitto offerings, but wear faster. If Toyo and Nitto wanted to, I bet they could re-stamp them as 180 or 200 (like the Hankook RS3 was) and be fine.

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2 minutes ago, Huggy said:

They are cross shopped all the time.  RE71R are known as more of an "autox" tire, easier to over heat and wear out, vs the toyos.  

 

I get the autox tire items, but from my understanding the 180 TW came to be because these were all considered off the shelf high performance tire people were using in the summer as well.  I don't want to put a ban on a certain tire with a 200 TW rating.  You go 1 to 2 seconds faster a lap, but they wear out easier right? What if there was something to slow down a pit stop or these multiple tire changes in a race so if you knew you had to really take care of the tires in an 8 hour race does that mean you would slow down and manage tires versus doing qualifying laps.  

 

It is a very hard discussion or a very hard item to come up with and I have been working on multiple options for the past year to try and submit another petition.

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7 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I get the autox tire items, but from my understanding the 180 TW came to be because these were all considered off the shelf high performance tire people were using in the summer as well.  I don't want to put a ban on a certain tire with a 200 TW rating.  You go 1 to 2 seconds faster a lap, but they wear out easier right? What if there was something to slow down a pit stop or these multiple tire changes in a race so if you knew you had to really take care of the tires in an 8 hour race does that mean you would slow down and manage tires versus doing qualifying laps.  

 

It is a very hard discussion or a very hard item to come up with and I have been working on multiple options for the past year to try and submit another petition.

In theory, I like your idea. But I think everyone can agree its got to be simple and easy to enforce.

 

Limiting how many wheels off the ground/tires changed per stop/tools over the wall etc is just skirting around the real problem. Its also hurting the budget minded racers (exactly the opposite of the intent).  

 

At certain tracks, I wear the left front tire out significantly faster than the RF or rears. I don't want to even add new tires, but rather just rotate them.  Making me do this with hand tools, or only 1 side of the car at a time really hurts that. 

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27 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

At certain tracks, I wear the left front tire out significantly faster than the RF or rears. I don't want to even add new tires, but rather just rotate them.  

 

Hahaha, Calabogie Stadium Track is top of mind I'm sure!

 

FWIW, I think of that example when looking at/evaluating some of the tire proposals.  Big heavy FWD car on a track that absolutely demolishes front left tires.

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

We should really move this to another thread - this is far beyond GBU discussion at this point.

 

  

Can you expound on this?  I don't understand the viewpoint/logic for not saying "this tire makes a mockery of the 200TW limit, its not permitted".  We already explicitly ban certain tires with the 200TW rule, which worked well for many years to contain speeds.  Tire technology has progressed and made that "cap" less effective.

 

 

 

Both of these ideas have issues that would need to be understood.  For example, both of these punish teams trying to get the last bit of life out of tires - If you are punished by having to replace tires, you are more likely to just start each day of a "2 race" weekend with a new set.  This would minimize the risk of having to change a tire that *might* make it 8 hours or might not.   For RS4, you can probably do an entire weekend with 1 set, but currently some teams might even go for 2 full weekends on a set.  That would stop that due to the added risk.

Another issue with this is that it actively incentivizes teams with a "marginal" tire to NOT change it.  Say you are in 1st place with 2 hours to go, and in the final pit stop you notice the right front tire is pretty close to cording.  Are you gonna give up that 1st by taking the 5 minute penalty or making an extra pass through pit to change tires? 

 

 

Another idea that has been presented is to only allow changing of one tire at a time.  This provides some issues as well:

1. it would unfairly penalize teams without ABS (so mostly older cars), as a single mistake resulting in flatspotted tires would require 2 stops to change the axle-set.

2. it doesn't solve the problem, as a team could just plan on changing one tire every pit stop and still end up with using 2 sets.  Usually the fast-wearing tires get burned up on the front first anyway, so its really not a huge roadblock to the practice of using those tires and changing them a bunch.

 

 

There was a petition this year to limit some things related to pit stops that had some potential.  I would love to hear the BOD's thoughts on that.  It had to do with restricting tire changing to battery powered tools, only allowing one side to be lifted at at time, etc.    

It seemed to me that this would have not impacted the "average joe" racers who have a harbor freight jack and a electric impact, but would have made it a bit more difficult for the teams that come in with pit crews, nascar pit carts, and nitrogen guns.  Perhaps there was another angle that I did not understand though.

Chris, What do you suggest as a solution to the tire cost problem we have currently in the series? I see you bringing up good points about possible issues with ideas, but I do not see any solutions brought by you, but I might have missed them. Or do you think we should leave it as is? What about teams that can spend 2-5K a weekend on tires vs the guys who can only afford one set of RS4's for two races. Should we simply give the teams with all the money that 2-4 second a lap advantage?

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3 hours ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

Couple of ideas that have been brought up here that were brought up to me:

1) Tire rules - we will never exclude a brand from this series.  We will never be a spec tire series to allow only one brand.  This is just not what I support on the BOD.

2) Not allowing teams to changes tires at a fuel pit stop.  - An idea brought up to me.

3) Tire pit stops be 5 minutes minimum. - An idea brought up to me.

4) Tire Rack gets their tires directly from Hankook overseas.  They get their shipment in March/April/May (depending when Hankook wants to send it) and once they are gone for the year then they are gone.  The Hankook USA is different and I do not know the relationship with Hankook that they have.  This is the source for the WRL and Lucky Dog deals versus Hankook directly.  

Tyler. I agree we should not ban tires, but we all know what tires are really not 200TW tires and which are, anyone who races for 10 minutes in Champcar knows. The RE71R and others are really not 200TW tires and the lap times show it as well as tire wear. 

 

I would like to know what you think the solution to this problem is? I suggested that if you run one of those tires you start a lap or more down, based on track and the teams can make it up. Other ideas are limit changing tires, limit pit stop times, etc. There has to be a solution I would think. If a majority of the Champcar members are asking for it to keep costs down and give the guys without pro team budgets a chance then shouldn't the BOD listen to us? I keep seeing reason to as to why we do not want to do it, but I would like to see ideas and solutions to the problem and address it head on. It is the fall season and when rules can be changed for 2021. I think it should be addressed as it seems to already be out of hand.

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9 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

Hahaha, Calabogie Stadium Track is top of mind I'm sure!

 

FWIW, I think of that example when looking at/evaluating some of the tire proposals.  Big heavy FWD car on a track that absolutely demolishes front left tires.

Which is why I'm really against an onerous tire rule. I know there are cars out there like the JSK Maxima that are very hard on fronts. And even though as a competitor some of these proposed tire rules/limitations/whatever might benefit us (or more accurately, won't hurt us as much as others), I think rules that are going to more negatively impact certain platforms don't work. 

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2 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Which is why I'm really against an onerous tire rule. I know there are cars out there like the JSK Maxima that are very hard on fronts. And even though as a competitor some of these proposed tire rules/limitations/whatever might benefit us (or more accurately, won't hurt us as much as others), I think rules that are going to more negatively impact certain platforms don't work. 

You have been racing a long time so what do you suggest as a good tire rule that can work for all? Or just leave it as is?  I think having mutliple perspectives is a good thing to hash out what can be done in the future on rules. We all have platforms of cars and pros and cons to all.

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2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

You have been racing a long time so what do you suggest as a good tire rule that can work for all? Or just leave it as is?  I think having mutliple perspectives is a good thing to hash out what can be done in the future on rules. We all have platforms of cars and pros and cons to all.

The only reasonable recommendation that I made was to limit total tires allowed during a race. Here is where I made that suggestion. Admittedly, it also still has flaws and could be exploited. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

You have been racing a long time so what do you suggest as a good tire rule that can work for all? Or just leave it as is?  I think having mutliple perspectives is a good thing to hash out what can be done in the future on rules. We all have platforms of cars and pros and cons to all.

 

Limit tire width

 

or

 

tire width for points

 

&

 

leave 180 rule alone

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If we want to solve the problem we should clearly define it. 

 

Is it burning through multiple sets of tires or is it a tire that is too fast but lasts at least a race. 

 

I'm of the opinion that if you can run a tire for a whole race it is not a real problem for the series  My concern is when teams runs multiple sets per race. 

 

I'm a heavy fwd car and I typically plan for new tires on the front every 8 to 12 hours race. My rears will last 2-3 races. RS4s might get me 16hrs on the fronts but the last two hours are marginal and I don't like changing tires during a race so I often change them before the next race. Left over tires are used for practice, test and tunes, and spares. So my tire budget is 5-6 tires per weekend. I have run RE71s once. I get 8-9 hrs on the fronts. Rears wear is similar to the RS4s. 

 

I may be in the minority but I don't think we need to worry about folks using a set or less a race. I don't care about the guy spending another $500 on tires. The issue is those gaining significant lap time by burning multiple sets. I can't afford $5000 in tires to attempt to match their speed. 

 

Lets solve the real issue here. 

 

My solution would be to allow one set of hand tools only. Only 4 tires including what is on the car over the wall. This slows down flipping tires a little, slows down tire changes a lot, has limited impact on single tire changes. Easy to enforce. 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, veris said:

Only 4 tires including what is on the car over the wall. This slows down flipping tires a little, slows down tire changes a lot, has limited impact on single tire changes. Easy to enforce. 

You're saying the set on the car plus another set, correct? This would be at total of 8 tires for a race up to 14 hours according to my suggestion. 

IMO, this really limits the big outliers at this point, of which there are only two teams of which I am aware. It also gives high hp FWD cars the ability to run multiple sets of fronts when they burn them up on rough tracks like Nelsons or PBIR (which was very hard on tires). 

I personally don't agree with the hand tool requirement (assuming you are excluding battery operated tools). If we're limiting the amount of tires used, then who cares how fast you can change them? 

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30 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Chris, What do you suggest as a solution to the tire cost problem we have currently in the series? I see you bringing up good points about possible issues with ideas, but I do not see any solutions brought by you, but I might have missed them. Or do you think we should leave it as is? What about teams that can spend 2-5K a weekend on tires vs the guys who can only afford one set of RS4's for two races. Should we simply give the teams with all the money that 2-4 second a lap advantage?

 

I have presented two possible solutions in the past.

 

1. The CEO handles "gross" offenders administratively.  No "rule" change required.  More of a "you know it when you see it" kinda thing.  1 tire every stop during a 24 hour race - thats too much.  335/30/18's by the truckload - thats too much.  Six rivals for a weekend, maybe thats OK?   Where the line is drawn here is the question, and once that line gets drawn it needs to be equally enforced, which has historically been an issue for champcar. 

 

2. Ban specific tires, or put restrictions on specific tires.  The issue here is not one I understand, because we already do this, and have done this since champcar's inception.  The field just changes when a new tire gets released, so why can't our rule be adapted. 

 

 

Both have issues with them, but I believe the other options presented have more issues, as discussed before.

 

Your idea about points or laps for specific tires has some merit as well in my opinion, however getting the balance right will be challenging and might take a few tries (and will need to be constantly updated to keep pace with new tires).

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13 minutes ago, Snorman said:

You're saying the set on the car plus another set, correct? This would be at total of 8 tires for a race up to 14 hours according to my suggestion. 

IMO, this really limits the big outliers at this point, of which there are only two teams of which I am aware. It also gives high hp FWD cars the ability to run multiple sets of fronts when they burn them up on rough tracks like Nelsons or PBIR (which was very hard on tires). 

I personally don't agree with the hand tool requirement (assuming you are excluding battery operated tools). If we're limiting the amount of tires used, then who cares how fast you can change them? 

 

No, I dont think what you are quoting is a limit to the total amount of tires for the race/weekend.  I think hes talking about total amount of tires over the wall at any one point.

 

I.e. take a tire off, take it to the wall and swap for another tire and bring the new tire back to install. Or, jack the car up, take all 4 tires off, swap front to rear/side to side but never exchange the tires for new ones.

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28 minutes ago, veris said:

My solution would be to allow one set of hand tools only. Only 4 tires including what is on the car over the wall. This slows down flipping tires a little, slows down tire changes a lot, has limited impact on single tire changes. Easy to enforce. 

 

This seems like the most simple solution presented.

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41 minutes ago, veris said:

If we want to solve the problem we should clearly define it. 

 

Is it burning through multiple sets of tires or is it a tire that is too fast but lasts at least a race. 

 

I'm of the opinion that if you can run a tire for a whole race it is not a real problem for the series  My concern is when teams runs multiple sets per race. 

 

I'm a heavy fwd car and I typically plan for new tires on the front every 8 to 12 hours race. My rears will last 2-3 races. RS4s might get me 16hrs on the fronts but the last two hours are marginal and I don't like changing tires during a race so I often change them before the next race. Left over tires are used for practice, test and tunes, and spares. So my tire budget is 5-6 tires per weekend. I have run RE71s once. I get 8-9 hrs on the fronts. Rears wear is similar to the RS4s. 

 

I may be in the minority but I don't think we need to worry about folks using a set or less a race. I don't care about the guy spending another $500 on tires. The issue is those gaining significant lap time by burning multiple sets. I can't afford $5000 in tires to attempt to match their speed. 

 

Lets solve the real issue here. 

 

My solution would be to allow one set of hand tools only. Only 4 tires including what is on the car over the wall. This slows down flipping tires a little, slows down tire changes a lot, has limited impact on single tire changes. Easy to enforce. 

What do you mean by hand tools? If I have to spin nuts off with a cross wrench thing, I’m out.

 

I don’t like “gimmicks” to slow down tire changes. If the goal is “change fewer tires” make that the rule. Don’t make the rule something else which you think will have the effect of “change fewer tires”.

 

If you think “one set of hand tools only” will make it impossible to change more than 2 tires in a stop, and that’s what you want, you should instead make the rule “max of two tires changed per stop”.

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This is what WRL has:

 

"The Chief Steward may waive these restrictions if weather conditions change during the race (i.e. rain):

a. Only one tire tool or one impact wrench allowed in the hot pit (excluding torque wrench).

b. Only manually operated floor jacks may be used.

c. Only two wheels may be lifted off the pavement at a time.

d. A total of 5 tires may be in the hot pit at any given time, including tires mounted on the car

"

 

At least this stops teams from changing tires during the race, doesn't stop people changing between days.

 

Also the problem is not that people are running RE71rs? The problem is that people spend $1600 instead of $400 on tires for a weekend.

But what if a team could get 1 weekend out of a RE71r? Then the cost argument becomes less important.

A slow driven wide RE71r might last pretty long.

Agree on banning a specific tire doesn't seem to be the correct move since it limit strategies for teams. Also the re71r is better than rs4 in the rain. 

 

Also:

205/50R15 RE71r = $124

275/35ZR19 RS4  = $281

 

So a Corvette running RS4 will have similar tire cost as a Miata.

 

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

You're saying the set on the car plus another set, correct? This would be at total of 8 tires for a race up to 14 hours according to my suggestion. 

IMO, this really limits the big outliers at this point, of which there are only two teams of which I am aware. It also gives high hp FWD cars the ability to run multiple sets of fronts when they burn them up on rough tracks like Nelsons or PBIR (which was very hard on tires). 

I personally don't agree with the hand tool requirement (assuming you are excluding battery operated tools). If we're limiting the amount of tires used, then who cares how fast you can change them? 

 

I'm not suggesting limiting the number of tires at a race; that is too hard to enforce. I'm suggesting only allowing 4 tires (including what is on the car) in the hot pit at a time. So you need to take the tire off and put it over the pit wall before you get another. Kind of like refueling. This slows down the speed of tire changes just like hand tools and results in a time penalty to change lots of tires. 

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47 minutes ago, enginerd said:

What do you mean by hand tools? If I have to spin nuts off with a cross wrench thing, I’m out.

 

I don’t like “gimmicks” to slow down tire changes. If the goal is “change fewer tires” make that the rule. Don’t make the rule something else which you think will have the effect of “change fewer tires”.

 

If you think “one set of hand tools only” will make it impossible to change more than 2 tires in a stop, and that’s what you want, you should instead make the rule “max of two tires changed per stop”.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. It is the easiest to enforce and allows teams that need to change a tire for odd wear or an incident in a reasonable time. 

 

I've done almost 30 endurance races and have only once changed a tire because someone flat spotted the hell out of a tire. In the event I need to I have no problem doing it that one time by hand. Less chance of cross stripping or snapping off a stud. 

 

Limiting 2 tires per stop won't reduce tire usage. Most team with multiple sets are only changing 2 tires at a time. Limiting the number of tires in a race is a logistics nightmare. 

 

I suppose you could limit it to one power tool, but I think limiting it to hand tools is the best solution as you are looking at about 60 to 90 seconds a tire change. A single power tools will be less than half that time. Multiple power tools means why bother having a rule anyway. 

 

This has the affect of hurting folks who want to run half used tires, but changing 1 tire in 2 different stops is very doable in the pit stop time without penalty. 

 

There are no perfect answers here. This solution is super easy to enforce and reduces the chance folks to effectively change a dozen tires without impacting their mean lap time while still allowing the odd tire change for minimum to no time penalty. 

 

If someone has a better solution lets do that, but I haven't seen one yet. 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, veris said:

 

I'm not suggesting limiting the number of tires at a race; that is too hard to enforce. I'm suggesting only allowing 4 tires (including what is on the car) in the hot pit at a time. So you need to take the tire off and put it over the pit wall before you get another. Kind of like refueling. This slows down the speed of tire changes just like hand tools and results in a time penalty to change lots of tires. 

Ahhh...got it. 

IMO, that's a pretty minimal time penalty. With no real limit on people over the wall, teams can have runners ready to go with tires for the far side of the car. And the wall side of the car is literally a few feet away, so it might cost 3-5 seconds/tire. Somebody is simply going to hand me the tire over the wall and I'm going to slap it on and hit it with a gun (I don't support the hand tool part). I'd be surprised if this costs teams more than 15-20 seconds on a 2-tire stop and 30-40 seconds on a 4-tire stop. 

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