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There are many ways to approach the tire situation, but many just don't work out well for our series.

1) Tire exclusion list: too many changes, too much maintenance, there's always a "new hot tire"

2) Limit number of tires per weekend: tech has to mark tires, too much work/time in tech now, then someone has to check the tires in pit lane to see if they are marked - enforcement disaster

3) Add time to tire pit stops: again, enforcement hassle / impractical

4) Pit only for tires separate from fuel: too punitive to those that want to use up old tires

 

The only practical solution needs to be easy to enforce, does not require more eyes, special exceptions, etc.  This is why I think the limit tire changes to basic tools (hand tools or cordless electric), limit 1 tire over the wall at a time and only one person can change tires/handle tires on a stop, limit of two wheels being off the ground at a time or some variation of this is the only practical, enforceable path.

 

1) Any team near you can see what you are doing

2) No change to pit time required (5 min)

3) No exclusion list to maintain

4) no tech hassle to mark/check installed tires.

 

I disincentive to high speed 4 tire stops is a good start.  The ability to change a pair of tires if needed in a 5 min stop "if" you are efficient still allows teams to use up old tires and takes care of the "damaged" tire issue. 

 

In fact, this was the verbiage of last years petition:

8.3.1        Teams may use as many tires as they wish in a weekend

8.3.2        Only one tire changer and one jack operator can be utilized to change tires

8.3.3        No air or corded tools may be used – cordless tools permitted (safety – no policing of air bottle safety, no tripping hazard and cost – no need for nitrogen bottle / regulator / cage – see change to 8.4.1 above)

8.3.4        Only 2 wheels may be raised at one time (Fronts / Rears / Lefts / Rights)

8.3.5        No lose tires on pit lane.  The tire changer must remove the wheel/tire from the vehicle, take it to the pit wall and return with the replacement (safety – tripping or uncontrolled lose wheels/tires rolling)

8.3.6        A tire change on any corner must be complete (no more than one wheel off at a time) before moving onto another wheel/tire unless the car is resting on jack stands see 8.3.7 below.  (torqueing lugs can be done once the car is on the ground)

8.3.7        No other work may be done while the car is raised on a jack only.  If the car is set on jack stands, other work may take place. (Driver may be in car, but no repair/service including “driver comfort”  (limit exposure to car falling, while still permitting work in repair situations)

8.3.8        Tire only stops have no mandatory pit lane stay (no change to current 5min rule)

 

And it went down to defeat....

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How on earth could CCES have a rule that says: 4.7.1 Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher and must not appear on the exclusion list. 4.7.2 Tires Exclusion:

There are many ways to approach the tire situation, but many just don't work out well for our series. 1) Tire exclusion list: too many changes, too much maintenance, there's always a "new hot tir

WRL is different because there is no minimum time on pit stops. Every second spent changing tires is seconds you aren’t turning laps. In ChampCar if you can change tires within the 5 minutes, there is

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8 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Ahhh...got it. 

IMO, that's a pretty minimal time penalty. With no real limit on people over the wall, teams can have runners ready to go with tires for the far side of the car. And the wall side of the car is literally a few feet away, so it might cost 3-5 seconds/tire. Somebody is simply going to hand me the tire over the wall and I'm going to slap it on and hit it with a gun (I don't support the hand tool part). I'd be surprised if this costs teams more than 15-20 seconds on a 2-tire stop and 30-40 seconds on a 4-tire stop. 

Simple test:

1. Change two tires with a single hand tools without the 4 tires over the pit wall rule. 

2. Change two tires with a single hand tools with the 4 tires over the put wall rule.

3. Change two tires with a single power tool without the 4 tires over the pit wall rule. 

4. Change two tires with a single power tool with the 4 tires over the pit wall rule. 

 

Share the results. 

 

I think you will be surprised. An extra 15 seconds on each steps quickly adds up. 

 

I ran Lucky Dog (Canadian race) last month for the first time. They don't allow the driver to be in the car while fueling. It has a very large impact on my pit stops. We went from lots of time in a 5 minute stop to very pressed to make a 5 minute pit stop. Little changes can make a big difference. 

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1 minute ago, craig71188 said:

There are many ways to approach the tire situation, but many just don't work out well for our series.

1) Tire exclusion list: too many changes, too much maintenance, there's always a "new hot tire"

2) Limit number of tires per weekend: tech has to mark tires, too much work/time in tech now, then someone has to check the tires in pit lane to see if they are marked - enforcement disaster

3) Add time to tire pit stops: again, enforcement hassle / impractical

4) Pit only for tires separate from fuel: too punitive to those that want to use up old tires

 

The only practical solution needs to be easy to enforce, does not require more eyes, special exceptions, etc.  This is why I think the limit tire changes to basic tools, limit 1 tire over the wall at a time, limit of two wheels being off the ground at a time or some variation of this is the only practical, enforceable path.

 

1) Any team near you can see what you are doing

2) No change to pit time required (5 min)

3) No exclusion list to maintain

4) no tech hassle to mark/check installed tires.

 

I disincentive to high speed 4 tire stops is a good start.  The ability to change a pair of tires if needed in a 5 min stop "if" you are efficient still allows teams to use up old tires and takes care of the "damaged" tire issue. 

 

I think this makes sense and why WRL did it. My guess is that WRL had  lots of $$$ teams that where running fast tires with impact guns, hydralic jacks  and crews.  

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6 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

I think this makes sense and why WRL did it. My guess is that WRL had  lots of $$$ teams that where running fast tires with impact guns, hydralic jacks  and crews.  

WRL is different because there is no minimum time on pit stops. Every second spent changing tires is seconds you aren’t turning laps. In ChampCar if you can change tires within the 5 minutes, there is no penalty. 

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I see a lot of people addressing changing of tires and there are some really good ideas to limit it. Craig has a very well thoughout rule change that makes sense.

 

What I do not really see is route cause of the issue. What I see is two basic tires teams use now. The sticky fast tires (re17r, A052, ect) that wear out fast and the tires that last (RS4, Direzza, VR1, ect), but are slower. This is a huge cost factor for speed that can be very unfair for a larger majority of the field. The slower tires will last about 2 race weekends. The faster tires last about 7-8 hours if lucky. You will go through 8-10 tires a weekend instead of 4 over two race weekends. 10 tires is like $2000+ vs $400.  I can get a full day out of a set of RE71R without changing anything that day. The tire change rules do not address the issue here for a lot of teams and can hurt teams that change tires to use up old tires first.

 

Is there a reasonable way to promote teams to run the slower tires at a cost reduction and be competitive?  We know the fast tires are 1-3 seconds a lap faster, there is no debate on that. We could say if you run the slower tire you start a lap up instead of penalizing the teams a lap down for faster tires. Maybe that will make people feel better about it?

 

How can we even the playing field for the teams that do not have the cash to burn on tires? I do believe this a vast majority of the field so it should be addressed.

 

Or are we going to simple say if you want to compete you now have to spend $2000+ a weekend on tires because that is the direction we are heading?

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

I have presented two possible solutions in the past.

 

1. The CEO handles "gross" offenders administratively.  No "rule" change required.  More of a "you know it when you see it" kinda thing.  1 tire every stop during a 24 hour race - thats too much.  335/30/18's by the truckload - thats too much.  Six rivals for a weekend, maybe thats OK?   Where the line is drawn here is the question, and once that line gets drawn it needs to be equally enforced, which has historically been an issue for champcar. 

 

I like this idea.  It's not a big problem.  Just a few teams buying wins with tires.

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I don't buy the argument slowing down tire changes doesn't solve the tire abuse issue. ie I don't see R3R or GBU changing a dozen tires by hand with those rules and not slowing down their pit stops significantly.

 

I also don't buy the $400 tire cost per weekend statement with RS4s. RE71s when I ran them was an extra $500 in tires (an additional 2 front tires) so $1500 vs $1000 a weekend. That said, lets assume you are correct. 

 

If you can run a full day race without changing tires, what rule fixes the re71 issue? Outside of banning them which is off the table [per the board], what would do it? Limiting to 8 tires a weekend won't. Limiting 6 won't either. ie If I am running RE71 I would plan on 6. So you would have to limit it to 5 tires and then how do you enforce that limit and is that even a reasonable limit in the case of problems or even flat spots? 

 

I honestly don't think you can solve the whole race on one set of RE71 issue. You can only solve multiple tire changes, 5k in tires a race which is really the issue here. 

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15 minutes ago, veris said:

 

If you can run a full day race without changing tires, what rule fixes the re71 issue? Outside of banning them which is off the table [per the board], what would do it? Limiting to 8 tires a weekend won't. Limiting 6 won't either. ie If I am running RE71 I would plan on 6. So you would have to limit it to 5 tires and then how do you enforce that limit and is that even a reasonable limit in the case of problems or even flat spots? 

A car doing 8 hours on a set of tires is not a problem as far as I can see. They could be Re71, rs4, doesn’t matter. Right? Maybe? The problem I keep hearing about is multiple sets in a day and crews changing lots of tires.

Or is one set Saturday and a separate set Sunday still too many tires? @MR2 Biohazard

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I already posted this in another thread, but it's here now as well.

 

No minimum pit stop time. This has more effects than just tires, but I'll get to that.

 

Since the driver can be changed when fueling, most all teams have the driver in before the fueling is finished. Changing tires has to wait until the fueling is done, which would add time onto the pit stop. If fueling takes 2min and tires takes 1 min, every pit stop will be 2min unless you change tires, then it would be 3min.

 

This would also negate the need for the people at the end of the pit lane. I know there were rumors about using RFID like what AER has, but we wouldn't need that either.

 

Good or bad, it will also have am impact in the cars with small/big fuel tanks. It would be easy to do a 30sec splash and go, shifting the balance between high/low power cars and fuel tank size.

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

A car doing 8 hours on a set of tires is not a problem as far as I can see. They could be Re71, rs4, doesn’t matter. Right? Maybe? The problem I keep hearing about is multiple sets in a day and crews changing lots of tires.

Or is one set Saturday and a separate set Sunday still too many tires? @MR2 Biohazard

I personally think it is to much from a cost perspective. Choose to run an RS4 for two race weekends at around $800 a set or $400 a race weekend at 1-3 seconds a lap slower and you are going to be 2-3 laps down on the faster tires at the end of the race. We feel like we are stating with laps on the tires that last.

 

Or get the faster tires and use a set a day, then you are using 4 sets over two race weekends. Cost for these is $1600 a race weekend. When teams budget 3-4K a weekend to race total the extra $1200 might not be a choice we are able to make.

 

I told my drivers that we can run the RE71R, but it would cost them each an extra $400 and all but one said no as it would hurt their total race budget and cause them to run less races. If we do that we would eliminate a race entry and that is something we are still debating. The tire situation can be causing Champcar to lose revenue in situations like this.

 

My takeaway here is that a lot teams are fine with spending all the extra money to have fast tires and use them for a day and that is acceptable. Maybe I am old school and stuck with the idea that tires can last 2 race weekends or more and have not been open to the idea yet that that is the old way of thinking and racing now is that you really need to spend a lot more on tires. At least TireRack is happy about that.

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35 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

I already posted this in another thread, but it's here now as well.

 

No minimum pit stop time. This has more effects than just tires, but I'll get to that.

 

Since the driver can be changed when fueling, most all teams have the driver in before the fueling is finished. Changing tires has to wait until the fueling is done, which would add time onto the pit stop. If fueling takes 2min and tires takes 1 min, every pit stop will be 2min unless you change tires, then it would be 3min.

 

This would also negate the need for the people at the end of the pit lane. I know there were rumors about using RFID like what AER has, but we wouldn't need that either.

 

Good or bad, it will also have am impact in the cars with small/big fuel tanks. It would be easy to do a 30sec splash and go, shifting the balance between high/low power cars and fuel tank size.

I definitely don’t want the arms race, safety issues, and chaos in my own team’s stops that would accompany removing the min pit stop time. Hard pass. Also I like winning on track, not in the pits. 

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14 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I personally think it is to much from a cost perspective. Choose to run an RS4 for two race weekends at around $800 a set or $400 a race weekend at 1-3 seconds a lap slower and you are going to be 2-3 laps down on the faster tires at the end of the race. We feel like we are stating with laps on the tires that last.

 

Or get the faster tires and use a set a day, then you are using 4 sets over two race weekends. Cost for these is $1600 a race weekend. When teams budget 3-4K a weekend to race total the extra $1200 might not be a choice we are able to make.

 

I told my drivers that we can run the RE71R, but it would cost them each an extra $400 and all but one said no as it would hurt their total race budget and cause them to run less races. If we do that we would eliminate a race entry and that is something we are still debating. The tire situation can be causing Champcar to lose revenue in situations like this.

 

My takeaway here is that a lot teams are fine with spending all the extra money to have fast tires and use them for a day and that is acceptable. Maybe I am old school and stuck with the idea that tires can last 2 race weekends or more and have not been open to the idea yet that that is the old way of thinking and racing now is that you really need to spend a lot more on tires. At least TireRack is happy about that.

 

I am surprised you had to use two sets of RE71r. Isn't your car light with wide tires???

 

 

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55 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I definitely don’t want the arms race, safety issues, and chaos in my own team’s stops that would accompany removing the min pit stop time. Hard pass. Also I like winning on track, not in the pits. 

 

If the 5 minute limit were removed, you'd be spending more time on track.  So technically you WOULD be winning on track vs the pits.  Just saying :)

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I personally think it is to much from a cost perspective. Choose to run an RS4 for two race weekends at around $800 a set or $400 a race weekend at 1-3 seconds a lap slower and you are going to be 2-3 laps down on the faster tires at the end of the race. We feel like we are stating with laps on the tires that last.

 

Or get the faster tires and use a set a day, then you are using 4 sets over two race weekends. Cost for these is $1600 a race weekend. When teams budget 3-4K a weekend to race total the extra $1200 might not be a choice we are able to make.

 

I told my drivers that we can run the RE71R, but it would cost them each an extra $400 and all but one said no as it would hurt their total race budget and cause them to run less races. If we do that we would eliminate a race entry and that is something we are still debating. The tire situation can be causing Champcar to lose revenue in situations like this.

 

My takeaway here is that a lot teams are fine with spending all the extra money to have fast tires and use them for a day and that is acceptable. Maybe I am old school and stuck with the idea that tires can last 2 race weekends or more and have not been open to the idea yet that that is the old way of thinking and racing now is that you really need to spend a lot more on tires. At least TireRack is happy about that.

 

So outside of a tire ban or a spec tire which we have already established is a no go by the board. What would solve this? 

 

If you don't have an answer then we are effectively throwing the baby out with the bath water. i.e. "If we can't limit tires to those with 24hr+ of wear then we won't slow down tire changes to eliminate $5k+ tire budgets either. That is effectively where we are without an alternative and opposition to these other tire change rules. 

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Removing the 5 minute pit stop rule does have potential to address both fuel & tire issues.  It allows you to remove pit entry/exit time controls....but...you would likely have to repurpose those folks to pit lane speed control.  The "potential" for teams taking safety short cuts is there, but aren't we all adults (more or less)?

 

Having said that, making that change would still allow top reams to change 4 tires every stop and likely do it faster than 90+% of most teams.  You would still need some sort of "limits" on tools/number of tires and it still puts more burden on teams wanting to use up older tires.

 

We have a 5 minute rule (and single file starts) under the banner of "safety", but yet we under staff our corner stations....

 

Having raced w/o pit time constraints, I do like the strategy options it allows, but in and of itself, I don't think it is the direction to be a disincentive to excessive tire use.

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12 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

I am surprised you had to use two sets of RE71r. Isn't your car light with wide tires???

 

 

From everything I have seen people use 4-6 a day on the RE71R or other fast tire. I have one set of re71r that my one driver bought to test out at Sebring. He really wanted to do well there, but we hit someone an hour in and killed that tire and the front right. We did not get to test them out yet fully in a full race and dry conditions. I tried again at PIRC, but blew up a motor on lap one. My driver did say it had amazing grip on the formation lap and first few turns though so it is promising so far with lap times. 

 

I am thinking with our light weight and tire size we should be able to do a 7-8 hour race and not have  any issues and finish without changing tires at all. I would think it would be more than half warn after 7-8 hours so we would need another set the next day. It would be 8 tires a weekend with the fast tires. Now if I could actually get an entire weekend out of a set or RE71R then I could get my drivers, and myself, to pony up the extra for that and justify the costs. We just need to finish a dang race to see what they will do. That, lately, is much easier said that done for me. I am going back to keeping it simple for next year, testing prior, dyno time to make sure it all good, ect. 

 

The ironic part of all this and me trying to get some rules put forth to give the RS4 tires a better chance is that I might have a good advantage if I ran the RE71R. 

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11 hours ago, veris said:

 

So outside of a tire ban or a spec tire which we have already established is a no go by the board. What would solve this? 

 

If you don't have an answer then we are effectively throwing the baby out with the bath water. i.e. "If we can't limit tires to those with 24hr+ of wear then we won't slow down tire changes to eliminate $5k+ tire budgets either. That is effectively where we are without an alternative and opposition to these other tire change rules. 

I still ponder that if we say XYZ tires get a penalty lap to start with (adjusted up for short tracks) should even it out if we also add the tire change rule. Then you pick the tire based on strategy for that track or drivers. It would not perfect, as no rule is, but it can get it closer to equalizing the advantage. I still think there would be an advantage, but you take the risk of making up the lap and more if you choose that.

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34 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

From everything I have seen people use 4-6 a day on the RE71R or other fast tire. I have one set of re71r that my one driver bought to test out at Sebring. He really wanted to do well there, but we hit someone an hour in and killed that tire and the front right. We did not get to test them out yet fully in a full race and dry conditions. I tried again at PIRC, but blew up a motor on lap one. My driver did say it had amazing grip on the formation lap and first few turns though so it is promising so far with lap times. 

 

I am thinking with our light weight and tire size we should be able to do a 7-8 hour race and not have  any issues and finish without changing tires at all. I would think it would be more than half warn after 7-8 hours so we would need another set the next day. It would be 8 tires a weekend with the fast tires. Now if I could actually get an entire weekend out of a set or RE71R then I could get my drivers, and myself, to pony up the extra for that and justify the costs. We just need to finish a dang race to see what they will do. That, lately, is much easier said that done for me. I am going back to keeping it simple for next year, testing prior, dyno time to make sure it all good, ect. 

 

The ironic part of all this and me trying to get some rules put forth to give the RS4 tires a better chance is that I might have a good advantage if I ran the RE71R. 

 

Bummer! 

 

We used 6 tires last weekend and have life left. For us the cost is not that big of a deal since we use them up in practice in between races.

Maybe we could have got away with 4 but since they become practice tires later it really doesn't matter.

 

 

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I still ponder that if we say XYZ tires get a penalty lap to start with (adjusted up for short tracks) should even it out if we also add the tire change rule. Then you pick the tire based on strategy for that track or drivers. It would not perfect, as no rule is, but it can get it closer to equalizing the advantage. I still think there would be an advantage, but you take the risk of making up the lap and more if you choose that.

I like that idea. Similar to NASA sprint rule modifier for power to weight for tires.

 

The question is will the board be ok with that and who would determine what tire gets what penalty. 

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I still ponder that if we say XYZ tires get a penalty lap to start with (adjusted up for short tracks) should even it out if we also add the tire change rule. Then you pick the tire based on strategy for that track or drivers. It would not perfect, as no rule is, but it can get it closer to equalizing the advantage. I still think there would be an advantage, but you take the risk of making up the lap and more if you choose that.

Would the same apply to width? It’s well known that as you go wider, tires get more expensive and grip increases. 
If you penalize brands based on grip and cost, should you not also penalize width based on grip and cost?

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13 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Would the same apply to width? It’s well known that as you go wider, tires get more expensive and grip increases. 
If you penalize brands based on grip and cost, should you not also penalize width based on grip and cost?

That is a good question. I thinking keeping the rule simple is best, we could add in a width factor, weight factor, FWD vs AWD vs RWD factor, an abs factor, a width of stock vs new factor, ect. I think those could complicate it to a point of not having it all. That would be a strategy to keep the status quote though, make it so convoluted that nothing with actually happen.

 

I would think a simple, you use a tire from list A you get a penalty of 1 lap for this list of tracks and 2 for this other list of tracks and multiply if a longer than 8 hour race.  It would be easy to understand and follow the reasoning is sound.

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How on earth could CCES have a rule that says:

4.7.1 Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher and must not appear on the exclusion list.
4.7.2 Tires Exclusion: The following tire models are not allowed for normal competition but may be run in EC Class:  Bridgestone RE71R, BFGoodrich Rival S & (1.5), Advan A052, Kuhmo Ecsta V720 ACR.  Additional tire models may be added to the exclusion list as they are released and/or additional data is gathered to keep tire costs for competitors at a reasonable level and maintain parity.


See, its impossible!

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8 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

How on earth could CCES have a rule that says:

4.7.1 Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher and must not appear on the exception list in 4.7.2.
4.7.2 Tires Exception: The following tire models are allowed for normal competition but will in a 1 lap penalty:  Bridgestone RE71R, BFGoodrich Rival S & (1.5), Advan A052, Kuhmo Ecsta V720 ACR.  Additional tire models may be added to the exception list as they are released and/or additional data is gathered to keep tire costs for competitors at a reasonable level and maintain parity.
 

I fixed it.  hehe

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48 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I fixed it.  hehe

One lap at gingerman is not one lap at road America.   One lap in a 8hour is not one lap in a 24 hour.  I don’t think you fixed it.

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I realize you guys want to run your RS4's for 40 or 50 race hours, and I do too.  But I am not sure I want to give up the flexibility of having tires available for varying tracks and conditions. 

 

Somebody asked for an exact problem definition.  I think I understand it mostly, I get that cost is an issue and of buying laptimes with tires.  But is it really that much of a cost issue as it is being made to be at all tracks?  I can only go on what I see and what I have experienced.  I usually run RS4 but as mentioned by somebody else tirerack was out at the end of last year so I went with the RE71.  I bought 8 RE71's for last years Barber race.  They turned out to be a little faster on my car, as expected.  For reference my car is heavy and eats tires a little faster than an E30 or a miata.  But I have ran the 71 before as a rain tire, they definitely are better in wet.  Anyway, we ran about half of the first day in the rain, finished up dry in a heated battle with the 911 boxter, so we put one new tire on the front left that night.  Ran about half the next day in the dry before breaking down.  Had those same tires for Rd Atl, as everyone knows we had the snowpocalypse.  Still had those same tires, I may have bought one to replace the worst of the 8 can't recall.  We ran both days at COTA to finish off the two sets, COTA is crazily pretty tough on tires.  So, I got three races in with 2 sets of RE71's, a good portion of two races in the rain and one complete weekend 16 hours in the dry on bad pavement. So, is that really a huge cost increase?  It wasn't a huge cost increase for me for those tracks in those conditions, but granted the RS4's would have lasted better.

 

I like the 71's for wet for sure and I don't get multiple races in the dry like we do with the RS4.  So now that they are available, I went back to the RS4 for Sebring.  Should be able to run all day on that one set, maybe.  I bought a set of RE71's from the Sahlens guys at a good deal that I will pick up at Sebring that I will probably run at Barber.  Barber's new surface is pretty easy on tires, so I expect good wear there again rain or shine.  I may have to run a new tire or two the 2nd day, will have to see.  

 

All that to say, better or faster and more expensive sure.  But it depends on the car, and the tire size, and the track, and the conditions, and on whether my tire is available, and on whether I find a good deal on a different tire on how much the impact truly is.  I am not against some of the options listed here, but I don't like limitations on how many I can change, sometimes I have two different types of tire available and I don't like to mix/match them so I should be able to change 2 fronts if I want to if I can do it in the fuel window.

 

Plus, my car has never, ever, been as fast as Troy's so if I want to pony up to try to stay up with him from time to time, I like the flexibility.

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