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9 hours ago, karman1970 said:

I think it's disingenuous to say that everyone who wants coolers and accusumps to remain points hopes and plans on their fellow competitors failing.  It's more the fact that this series is (or was, at some point in the distant past) about racing normal street cars and any change you made beyond what was factory cost you.  Some people feel it still ought to remain that way.  That doesn't mean they WANT their fellow racers to blow up.

I would say that I have seen and heard the statement of people not wanting others to finish so they can do well so many times when the reliability items comes up that a good portion do not. You might not want that, but I think a good portion do.

 

On that same note, since you said the series is/was you recognize that it is not the same old series about running street cars and every change cost you. Can we now get away from that dogma and promote reliability and not penalize it? What will it take to get teams on board with promoting and encouraging reliability and trying to get all racers to finish a race? To me racing is about the battle on track and to the finish line. I never ever ever want to beat someone because their car failed for any reason. I want to battle them to the end, may I win or lose. 

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8 hours ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

I agree that reliable race cars make for a much more enjoyable time. Even if they are slower the seat time given is much more important than the finishing position. The only complaint I have is knowing what I'm driving doesn't give me much of a chance at being truly competitive in what I thought would be one of the slowest classes in Champ Car. That aside I know I have lots to improve on the car to have the best lap I can do at RA, though I have trouble believing I need to gain 25 seconds a lap, that's what it's looking like to be competitive in A right now. I don't believe a tire size or compound change would be anywhere near that beneficial, though I will be interested in seeing what my Aero mods over the winter will bring. The surge tank should let us get closer to the 2 hour limit but won't change our lap times. The motor is stout but basically stock, bored 040 over with a g grind cam a new speed throttle body, I believe that Aero is hurting us the most as we ran well with everyone out of corners untill 4th gear and 5. Seems that aero improvements will benefit us the most but can't fathom that will gain us anywhere near 25 seconds a lap, I'll be happy to see 10 seconds, but even that won't make it much more competitive in A. My fault for thinking a 36 year old car could compete with much newer vehicles.

 

I agree that classes are not based on speed at all, currently. Do you ever think you could be competitive against a S2000, or CRX with a swap? The car competitive speed mainly comes down hp, weight, fuel tank size, tires. The rest are slight gains, brakes to feel good and finish doing the same as what you started out, suspension to feel right and handle the track, ect. I am betting your car is just underpowered for what it is, I could be wrong. PM me and we can talk about your build and possible items to make it faster. I knew a few guys with similar cars. 

 

This is exactly why I proposed classes based on points and not engine size. I used many races and looked at the data and it makes sense. I do think if adopted it would be a change for a race or two, some will complain as that always happens, then a few races in we will say, why did we not do this all along. Then a year or two we will talk about the old times when we had classes based on engine size and how that really did not work now that we know classes based on points works.

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4 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Where should zero point reliability mods end?   Coolers and Accusumps?  Hubs that are weak?  Transmissions that break easily?  Differentials that were not meant for racing and don't last?  Engine internals that can't take 7000 rpm all day long race after race?

They'll end once all the weak points of an MR2 are addressed and the car can handle 400hp.

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I would say that I have seen and heard the statement of people not wanting others to finish so they can do well so many times when the reliability items comes up that a good portion do not. You might not want that, but I think a good portion do.

 

On that same note, since you said the series is/was you recognize that it is not the same old series about running street cars and every change cost you. Can we now get away from that dogma and promote reliability and not penalize it? What will it take to get teams on board with promoting and encouraging reliability and trying to get all racers to finish a race? To me racing is about the battle on track and to the finish line. I never ever ever want to beat someone because their car failed for any reason. I want to battle them to the end, may I win or lose. 

 

This whole statement is flabbergasting.

 

Part of endurance racing is making it to the finish line. That's literally part of the challenge. Our team strives on the fact that usually we are on/near the podium simply because our car stays together and is more reliable than all the cars around it. We are usually multiple seconds off the pace of the cars in front and behind us. But we don't (errr, try not to) make stupid mistakes and have made the car (fairly) reliable.

 

Why don't we just have a one lap race? Surely all the cars can make it....meh.... Maybe it should be half a lap.

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Endurance racing is partially a technical challenge to build a car that can last the race. ChampCar is partially about keeping costs low and cheap seat time. These two goals are at odds. Given the cost just to show up at these races, reliability is a prerequisite for low cost.

 

I prefer reliability because I don't find the technical challenge very interesting. At the power these cars make it's just not hard to last a race, especially if you have the budget to throw new parts at it between races. I also don't find working on cars much fun.

 

It's worth noting allowing all non-performance reliability mods greatly simplifies the rulebook and makes the series more accessible to noobs. Of course potential ChampCar customers don't have voices here.

My belief is the vast majority of people just want hassle-free, cheap racing more than anything else, and that means not caring about reliability mods. If ChampCar continues to penalize reliability and micro-manage builds with complex rules, I think other street-tire endurance series will overtake it in size.

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55 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Hubs that are weak?

Do you really want cars having hub flange failures on track? Seems to me there's a big difference between an accusump which keeps the engine alive and a part which could potentially keep the driver alive.

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4 minutes ago, Grant said:

Do you really want cars having hub flange failures on track? Seems to me there's a big difference between an accusump which keeps the engine alive and a part which could potentially keep the driver alive.

I'm just going to point this out....

 

You CAN do anything....  for points.

 

Nobody is saying you couldn't run better hubs.  You just, currently, need to pay points for them.

 

In other words, it would be the team owner who would be putting their driver in that situation, not champcar.  The team owner can choose to use points for reliability items.

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2 minutes ago, Grant said:

Do you really want cars having hub flange failures on track? Seems to me there's a big difference between an accusump which keeps the engine alive and a part which could potentially keep the driver alive.

I didn't say I wanted anyone to break anything. (we have had hub failures) 

    Currently non stock hubs are points,  should they be on the free list.  Many cars need different things to get them to finish line, are we going to cover all of them?   

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6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm just going to point this out....

 

You CAN do anything....  for points.

 

Nobody is saying you couldn't run better hubs.  You just, currently, need to pay points for them.

 

In other words, it would be the team owner who would be putting their driver in that situation, not champcar.  The team owner can choose to use points for reliability items.

so you're saying that a team could choose coolers and reliability over Aero and hp???   That's crazy talk.

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20 minutes ago, Grant said:

Endurance racing is partially a technical challenge to build a car that can last the race. ChampCar is partially about keeping costs low and cheap seat time. These two goals are at odds. Given the cost just to show up at these races, reliability is a prerequisite for low cost.

 

I prefer reliability because I don't find the technical challenge very interesting. At the power these cars make it's just not hard to last a race, especially if you have the budget to throw new parts at it between races. I also don't find working on cars much fun.

 

It's worth noting allowing all non-performance reliability mods greatly simplifies the rulebook and makes the series more accessible to noobs. Of course potential ChampCar customers don't have voices here.

My belief is the vast majority of people just want hassle-free, cheap racing more than anything else, and that means not caring about reliability mods. If ChampCar continues to penalize reliability and micro-manage builds with complex rules, I think other street-tire endurance series will overtake it in size.

 

Pretty much all of what you just said is incorrect.

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11 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

In other words, it would be the team owner who would be putting their driver in that situation, not champcar.  The team owner can choose to use points for reliability items.

If you make racers chose between safety and speed, the competitive ones will chose speed. This is a big reason why motorsport series have mandated safety items.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

   So lets just say a team has 150 points to use, they do so and bring a car to the track and are 3 seconds a lap faster than the field at Road Atlanta and VIR South. They blow their engine at both events, because they claim they need an accusump and oil cooler. You proposed to give them the cure for free. They chose to use every point they had for speed instead of using 30 of the 150 points available to cure their own problem. #justwanttobefast. This searies is just like life you make choices chose wisely.   

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14 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

   So lets just say a team has 150 points to use, they do so and bring a car to the track and are 3 seconds a lap faster than the field at Road Atlanta and VIR South.

If the series rules are designed to balance cars by reliability and speed, then yes eliminating penalties for reliability items will benefit the unreliable, fast cars the most. Troy is a smart guy and presumably rules changes would not be made in a vacuum. I guess VPIs would need to be increased for unreliable cars?

In my experience, most motors with oil starvation and temperature problems can easily last a race. e.g. SC300s. My NC starves a bit too. Lots of cars do actually, but most people don't log oil pressure at a high enough frequency to see it.

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I would like to see more reliability items be free to allow entrants from other series to be able to crossover to champcar.

 

I also think it will lower operating costs in champcar.

 

However, we would need to raise the point values on stuff that helps you go faster.  

 

What say you @MR2 Biohazard?

 

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
46 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see more reliability items be free to allow entrants from other series to be able to crossover to champcar.

 

I also think it will lower operating costs in champcar.

 

However, we would need to raise the point values on stuff that helps you go faster.  

 

What say you @MR2 Biohazard?

 

 

  I wll agree with this but without adding more points to power adders and especially aero it would be a complete mistake.

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48 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see more reliability items be free to allow entrants from other series to be able to crossover to champcar.

 

I also think it will lower operating costs in champcar.

 

However, we would need to raise the point values on stuff that helps you go faster.  

 

What say you @MR2 Biohazard?

 

 

Add in fuel for points and I could jump on that train :)

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1 minute ago, Ray Franck said:

  I wll agree with this but without adding more points to power adders and especially aero it would be a complete mistake.

Wouldn't it be better to increase the VPI for cars which are fast but unreliable? Making reliability mods free benefits some cars a lot more than others, while power mods are pretty universal. e.g. my NC would only benefit because I wouldn't have to change rear hubs after every race.

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2 hours ago, shutupracing said:

They'll end once all the weak points of an MR2 are addressed and the car can handle 400hp.

This is what upsets me all the time. People assume I am doing all this for my advantage and that is not the case at all. I only have an accusump and take the points for it and have the points for it.  I have said this time and time again, yet people love to ignore that. Good on assuming that and trying to make me look bad on trying to get free items for my own car.

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Where should zero point reliability mods end?   Coolers and Accusumps?  Hubs that are weak?  Transmissions that break easily?  Differentials that were not meant for racing and don't last?  Engine internals that can't take 7000 rpm all day long race after race?

I think coolers and accusumps should be free. The one I have an issue with is if someone puts in an LSD rear diff and then need the cooler to keep it from going bad then that should be points as you added it when you add a performance item. 

 

To me hubs should be points. Transmissions can have a cooler for zero points. Rear diffs that are stock can have a cooler for zero points. Engine internals should be stock and the rules say that now.

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2 hours ago, shutupracing said:

 

This whole statement is flabbergasting.

 

What is flabbergasting? A portion of people hope for others to blow up to improve their finish. I am not one of those people. I want people to finish, go home with a car ready to go again. I do not want teams to go home with a broken car and maybe not come back. That is the point to reliability items in my mind.

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7 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think coolers and accusumps should be free. The one I have an issue with is if someone puts in an LSD rear diff and then need the cooler to keep it from going bad then that should be points as you added it when you add a performance item. 

Why not just increase the points value of the LSD then, and not concern yourself with coolers at all?

I don't think you need a cooler with most clutch-style differentials. The NC doesn't, and neither does our EC Z32's Nismo diff. However temps get very high, and I'd wager they last a lot longer with a cooler. Quaifes should run at similar temps to open diffs.

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6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

This is what upsets me all the time. People assume I am doing all this for my advantage and that is not the case at all. I only have an accusump and take the points for it and have the points for it.  I have said this time and time again, yet people love to ignore that. Good on assuming that and trying to make me look bad on trying to get free items for my own car.

No need to be upset. But it is to your own advantage, and you need to recognize this. If an accusump is free, your car will be faster.

 

3 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think coolers and accusumps should be free. The one I have an issue with is if someone puts in an LSD rear diff and then need the cooler to keep it from going bad then that should be points as you added it when you add a performance item. 

 

To me hubs should be points. Transmissions can have a cooler for zero points. Rear diffs that are stock can have a cooler for zero points. Engine internals should be stock and the rules say that now.

Why do they need to be free? Nothing prevents anyone from adding these items to their car. I know we see this differently, but to me, finishing a race is part of the challenge. Teams must balance speed and reliability. Take away the need to address reliability using points and speed will drastically increase.

 

Just now, MR2 Biohazard said:

A portion of people hope for others to blow up to improve their finish. 

Who has ever said this?

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see more reliability items be free to allow entrants from other series to be able to crossover to champcar.

 

I also think it will lower operating costs in champcar.

 

However, we would need to raise the point values on stuff that helps you go faster.  

 

What say you @MR2 Biohazard?

 

 

I do think speed items on the list need to be looked at. Certain items make a big difference and others almost nothing. Example, a wing is worth 10 points. Side skirts are worth 10 points. Really? Who came up with that logic. I would say the wing could be more and side skirts less. I think we all know what values on points matter for speed and what really do not.

 

1 hour ago, Ray Franck said:

   So lets just say a team has 150 points to use, they do so and bring a car to the track and are 3 seconds a lap faster than the field at Road Atlanta and VIR South. They blow their engine at both events, because they claim they need an accusump and oil cooler. You proposed to give them the cure for free. They chose to use every point they had for speed instead of using 30 of the 150 points available to cure their own problem. #justwanttobefast. This searies is just like life you make choices chose wisely.   

I agree that team should have looked at using the points correctly and I would like to see a full breakdown of the points and what was used in that scenario, that I assume is made up. Maybe if Champcar did not give the team that did well so many allowances to get free items that others did not, and you know what I am talking about

 

.

 

Here is a real world scenairo.

Person has a car, does a swap, uses points for suspenion, a wing and splitter. They are at 498 points. They can finish in the top 10 if all things go very very well, but probably not win. If they take a lap they have basically no chance to do well. I encourage them to put an accusump on and take a lap, but they want to have the chance of doing well. There is nothing else they can take off. The issue is that the oil pan is designed in a way that will oil starve from time to time and this setup has blown up in the past. The team owner has said if the car blows up again he can not afford to rebuild it and will part it out. Champcar will lose a team because we have rules against accusumps and penalize a team for running them. Yes, he took 10 points and took a penalty lap for it so yes, he is penalized for having it.

 

35 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

  I wll agree with this but without adding more points to power adders and especially aero it would be a complete mistake.

From a person who has tried all the aero items I can tell you two things really matter. A wing and splitter. We all hard on aero so much thinking it is all that and at our hp levels and speed it does not really matter much at all. When you add aero you add aero drag, that slows you down, and you also add weight, which slows you down. You have to overcome all of that and the cost benefit is usually not worth it.

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm just going to point this out....

 

You CAN do anything....  for points.

 

Nobody is saying you couldn't run better hubs.  You just, currently, need to pay points for them.

 

In other words, it would be the team owner who would be putting their driver in that situation, not champcar.  The team owner can choose to use points for reliability items.

I think the issue there is no one wants to be midfield and slow. People will choose the risk, almost every time, to be competitive. I do not know anyone who will say, sure, give me laps, or go much slower and drive around mid pack instead of being more towards the top the field. We all come to race and want to race, that is not driving around.  Saying teams have a choice is not really realistic and a way to for someone who beats someone else that fails to feel good a night when they sleep. I want to race and be passing, or be passed, on the last lap at the checker. I do not want to win by 5 laps and beat someone because their engine blew up. I know, I am crazy that way. 

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14 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

No need to be upset. But it is to your own advantage, and you need to recognize this. If an accusump is free, your car will be faster.

 

Why do they need to be free? Nothing prevents anyone from adding these items to their car. I know we see this differently, but to me, finishing a race is part of the challenge. Teams must balance speed and reliability. Take away the need to address reliability using points and speed will drastically increase.

 

Who has ever said this?

How, if an accusump is free, will my car be faster?  Please explain that logic to me? I have the points to take now, I am under 500 points, it would not change my own build at at all if the points are free. It would encourage others to put them on and not blow up though.

 

You said you plan on others blowing up and will finish better because of it. You just said

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