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9 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

How, if an accusump is free, will my car be faster?  Please explain that logic to me? I have the points to take now, I am under 500 points, it would not change my own build at at all if the points are free. It would encourage others to put them on and not blow up though.

 

You said you plan on others blowing up and will finish better because of it. You just said

Free parts mean you can spend points on fast parts

You've been harping on this free accusump for years- I think it's time to let it go...

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So lets just say a team has 150 points to use, they do so and bring a car to the track and are 3 seconds a lap faster than the field at Road Atlanta and VIR South. They blow their engine at both event

Hello All, A lot of you know me already from racing with Champcar since the beginning, over 11 years ago. We have gone through a lot of changes and growth together and having that perspective I

Good point. TAC has brought this up and would like to spend more time on it, rather than being bogged down with 113 petitions to go through this past year. (I'm seriously thinking about submitting a p

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18 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

How, if an accusump is free, will my car be faster?  Please explain that logic to me? I have the points to take now, I am under 500 points, it would not change my own build at at all if the points are free. It would encourage others to put them on and not blow up though.

 

You said you plan on others blowing up and will finish better because of it. You just said

See below. If you have the points to spend, you can add more go fast bits. If you're above 500, it still helps your relative speed as you don't have to make up laps.

 

Yes, I plan (don't plan, but expect) on others "blowing up". But I don't hope for it. Why is it my problem that others can't make their car last when I can? People "blow up" for various different reasons. Some have nothing to do with accusump and reliability bits. Should those teams get a VPI points reduction because they can't build their car to last 8 hours?


Different topic; what happened to your car at Pittrace? I didn't hear what happened.

 

7 minutes ago, chip said:

Free parts mean you can spend points on fast parts

You've been harping on this free accusump for years- I think it's time to let it go...

Glad I'm not the only one who can see the forest through the trees.

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Just now, chip said:

Free parts mean you can spend points on fast parts

You've been harping on this free accusump for years- I think it's time to let it go...

You are probably right I should let it go. I just do not want to see teams blow up and leave the series. That is what is happening and I know people will say, they should have chosen to put those on and take points, but that is not what is happening in a lot of cases. As a business how is that a good thing to see teams blow up and leave the series? These same teams can go to our competitors and race with the items to keep them reliable. I know we look at this from a small perspective of that person or team being as competitive as possible and keeping their own reliability advantage, but is that a determent to the series? 

 

Again, for me, I have the points and take them for the accusump. If I get 10 points back it does not change my build at all. Really, what is 10 points going to do for someone that is going to really make them faster and let them get something they do not already have? 

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4 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

See below. If you have the points to spend, you can add more go fast bits. If you're above 500, it still helps your relative speed as you don't have to make up laps.

 

Yes, I plan (don't plan, but expect) on others "blowing up". But I don't hope for it. Why is it my problem that others can't make their car last when I can? People "blow up" for various different reasons. Some have nothing to do with accusump and reliability bits. Should those teams get a VPI points reduction because they can't build their car to last 8 hours?


Different topic; what happened to your car at Pittrace? I didn't hear what happened.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who can see the forest through the trees.

Pitt Race I am not sure yet. I have had issues with the new car and blown up a few engines now. I know why all but this one yet, and all were my own fault, so I take the blame. The first I wired up the banks wrong, but right, and one bank did not fire all the time and washed the cylinder, filled oil with gas and blew up. The next engine was fine, ran WGI, then went to a pro tuner, who started from scratch and checked the base timing by pulling the coil, putting a plug wire from the spark plug to the coil and that was really not on. It is a pita to test the timing with a timing light and took more than 20 minutes. Washed that cylinder and killed it on the dyno.  I put a new one in and tuned it myself and was strong. I tested at Dominion and worked good, until, there is always and until, I forgot to turn on heater circuit to the wideband. It gave bad readings and my fault there was I let the ECU control +/- 15% , which in theory is fine, but it made it lean and had some knock. I tested it after and was fine so I brought it to Nelsons. 45 min it blew up and was from the ring lands breaking from the know. I now only let it control 3% afr.  After all that I decided to put in the engine I have been working on for a while. I ported/polished the heads myself and built a flow bench (anyone want to borrow it let me now). I had a shop shave the heads to make flat and do a valve job. I put a custom cam in it I had made in Australia. She felt great, reved great and I thought was good. On track on the first lap the driver radioed in it felt down on power on the straight, then next straight worse and then stopped. Looking at all the data and smarty cam we noticed oil pressure was good, but oil temp went from 225 to 275 on the first straight and then from 275-325 the next straight and stopped. I am think the bottom end bearings or something went bad. It was a stock bottom end and I just removed the heads and put on the new good ones. I was so frustrated I have complicated quiting, but no dang it. The other issue was at Nelsons we finished well in the old car, but lost 5th gear.  She also had a small oil leak and that engine is 3+ years old and ran for 4+ hours at WGI at 245-260F. I felt she was tired and put in a new junkayrd motor with a new junkyard trans. She would run good at 3000rpm and above, but not below well at all. I tried everything I could fix it and brought it to PIRC thinking we had a good bio 2 car. I had all my guys look at it and changed everything we could think of and the old car still would not run right. We think it is a bad wiring harness or just a bad engine for some reason. It still baffles me. I went home with two broken cars and needed a break from it. I made them stay in the trailer for 2 months now and will get to fixing them once my depression is over. I plan to put a stock motor back in both cars and keep it simple. No more cams or fancy hp goals. I plan to tune and dyno the new car and do a good test day to really beat on her to make sure she is good. The old car will get a new engine and is now in EC so she should be good. I got a new engine harness to try out also.  I  did race for Visceral at Road American and had an amazing time racing for their team and not being a team owner/boss. I plan to do that a lot more in the future.  Sorry, long story and I am sure I left out some details.

 

As far as points to spend, a free accusump is not going to change my build at all.

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I do think speed items on the list need to be looked at. Certain items make a big difference and others almost nothing. Example, a wing is worth 10 points. Side skirts are worth 10 points.  I think we all know what values on points matter for speed and what really do not.

 

Good point. TAC has brought this up and would like to spend more time on it, rather than being bogged down with 113 petitions to go through this past year. (I'm seriously thinking about submitting a petition to limit petitions to 25-30 per year. Get it in early or wait until next year. Most were frivolous, and repetitive anyway. Some for many years, as mentioned.)

 

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Person has a car, does a swap, uses points for suspenion, a wing and splitter. They are at 498 points. They can finish in the top 10 if all things go very very well, but probably not win. If they take a lap they have basically no chance to do well. I encourage them to put an accusump on and take a lap, but they want to have the chance of doing well. There is nothing else they can take off. The issue is that the oil pan is designed in a way that will oil starve from time to time and this setup has blown up in the past. The team owner has said if the car blows up again he can not afford to rebuild it and will part it out. Champcar will lose a team because we have rules against accusumps and penalize a team for running them. Yes, he took 10 points and took a penalty lap for it so yes, he is penalized for having it.

This doesn't sound like a rules problem at all to me. Team chose to swap engine so they can run up front - spent points on go fast parts -suspension, wing, splitter - but fail to fix the reliability problem they have. Hmmm, the swap to be competitive came with some issues that needed to be solved too? Damn rulebook!!

 

(Sounds kinda like today's world - make a bad choice but blame someone else for your results.) 

 

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I think the issue there is no one wants to be midfield and slow. People will choose the risk, almost every time, to be competitive. I do not know anyone who will say, sure, give me laps, or go much slower and drive around mid pack instead of being more towards the top the field. We all come to race and want to race, that is not driving around.  Saying teams have a choice is not really realistic and a way to for someone who beats someone else that fails to feel good a night when they sleep. 

Knowing my type of car runs really hot oil temperatures in racing conditions, the first modification I chose when building the car was to put a 20 point oil cooler on it. As I sit here at right around 480 points, it sure would be nice if that oil cooler was free so I could add a wing, splitter and air dam that most folks say will get you 3-4 seconds a lap. 

 

Not trying to pick on ya Troy, but many others have pointed out how this works, it's not that hard to understand. Points for items made free will be used elsewhere to make the car go faster. A revamp of VPI's and FPV's would be necessary to allow free reliability mods. Most of us volunteers don't have time for an entire re-write, and most of the members have learned to work within the ChampCar rules, and don't want it. 

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5 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

I agree that team should have looked at using the points correctly and I would like to see a full breakdown of the points and what was used in that scenario, that I assume is made up. Maybe if Champcar did not give the team that did well so many allowances to get free items that others did not, and you know what it is

  Not made up totaly factual, never assume.

  No I do not, what allowances, name it.

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20 hours ago, Grant said:

My hunch is WRL build costs (for say GP2) are higher than Chump's, but I'm pretty sure running costs are lower.


Yea, you might actually be able to get the running costs lower in WRL. 

An example is that if you need 250HP, you might as well go with an aluminum LS and then detune. Go ahead and dry sump and run all the coolers your heart desires. For a transmission you could go with something designed to handle high torque like a TREMEC TR-6060. Other than shocks, suspension components are nearly open, so you can certainly make that reliable. 

I'm thinking the initial build might be 3x+ the costs, but the running costs and reliability could possible be better in WRL. 

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

To me hubs should be points.

So I've deleted two responses on this.   I'm going to go with this question.  How is not finishing a race because of a broken hub that did a few hundred in damage on the way out, any different than not finishing because the oil got to hot?     This just seems to me to be completely inconsistent reasoning.   

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6 hours ago, Grant said:

Endurance racing is partially a technical challenge to build a car that can last the race. ChampCar is partially about keeping costs low and cheap seat time. These two goals are at odds. Given the cost just to show up at these races, reliability is a prerequisite for low cost.

 

I prefer reliability because I don't find the technical challenge very interesting. At the power these cars make it's just not hard to last a race, especially if you have the budget to throw new parts at it between races. I also don't find working on cars much fun.

 

It's worth noting allowing all non-performance reliability mods greatly simplifies the rulebook and makes the series more accessible to noobs. Of course potential ChampCar customers don't have voices here.

My belief is the vast majority of people just want hassle-free, cheap racing more than anything else, and that means not caring about reliability mods. If ChampCar continues to penalize reliability and micro-manage builds with complex rules, I think other street-tire endurance series will overtake it in size.

Grant what make car to you run and how long have you been racing ?

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6 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Grant what make car to you run and how long have you been racing ?

David...it's comical watching you try to delegitimize any comments that aren't blowing smoke up everybody's @ss about Champcar. And now, you're trying to delegitimize a member by asking them how long they've been racing. 

Give it a rest. 

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3 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Good point. TAC has brought this up and would like to spend more time on it, rather than being bogged down with 113 petitions to go through this past year. (I'm seriously thinking about submitting a petition to limit petitions to 25-30 per year. Get it in early or wait until next year. Most were frivolous, and repetitive anyway. Some for many years, as mentioned.)

It's ridiculous when 3 people are responsible for what...80+ petitions? And probably at least a dozen of those were redundant. And one of those people has never even built a car in this series and only raced as a renter. How does the series expect the members to get involved when getting involved means reading through a 100+ page .pdf file to review and be informed about the petitions? I agree 100%...limit it to 3-5 petitions per member per year or cap it at 25-30 TOTAL. 

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Just now, Snorman said:

David...it's comical watching you try to delegitimize any comments that aren't blowing smoke up everybody's @ss about Champcar. And now, you're trying to delegitimize a member by asking them how long they've been racing. 

Give it a rest. 

It was just  a simple question sean not directed at you.  I don't even  know you.  Did you change your name ?     Glad I made you with a laugh today.   Oh by the way I thought it was comical that you and the gang   tried  to protest a  car in 37th  place after winning the race.    WOW!    We all had a good laugh at that one.     Speaks  volumes about your team.    True Colors

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

So I've deleted two responses on this.   I'm going to go with this question.  How is not finishing a race because of a broken hub that did a few hundred in damage on the way out, any different than not finishing because the oil got to hot?     This just seems to me to be completely inconsistent reasoning.   

We could put hubs in there though, but I want to think of engines and trans as the main items to think reliability on for no points. I take points on hubs myself and choose to instead of spending $450 every 2-3 races and possible failure. When they do break we are out for that race for 30-45 minutes, spares on and back out. The big items to me are the ones that are for sure cause you to be on the trailer and done and home.

 

To me I am thinking car on the trailer, lots of money and lots of time to fix.

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52 minutes ago, Snorman said:

It's ridiculous when 3 people are responsible for what...80+ petitions? And probably at least a dozen of those were redundant. And one of those people has never even built a car in this series and only raced as a renter. How does the series expect the members to get involved when getting involved means reading through a 100+ page .pdf file to review and be informed about the petitions? I agree 100%...limit it to 3-5 petitions per member per year or cap it at 25-30 TOTAL. 

hey hey. I already have 15-18 written for next year already waiting for the 1st so I can submit them. It is my personal joy of the year and how I start my new year off.

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25 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

It was just  a simple question sean not directed at you.  I don't even  know you.  Did you change your name ?     Glad I made you with a laugh today.   Oh by the way I thought it was comical that you and the gang   tried  to protest a  car in 37th  place after winning the race.    WOW!    We all had a good laugh at that one.     Speaks  volumes about your team.    True Colors

Not sure what you're talking about, Dave. We've submitted exactly two protests since being in the series since 2015. One was at Sebring in 2018 (where we broke and didn't win the race) and another was at Road Atlanta in 2019 (where we finished P3), and our protest was not accepted and the ex-CEO instead filed a protest against the car in P2. 

But you keep spreading bull cookies, it speaks volumes about you. BTW...I presume the garbage you're trying to spread is about the GBU car at Road America, which finished 37th on Day 1 after breaking. You seem to be comically misinformed about a great many things. 

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6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

hey hey. I already have 15-18 written for next year already waiting for the 1st so I can submit them. It is my personal joy of the year and how I start my new year off.

Oh no. Seriously Troy, it's getting out of hand. I can't imagine the hours that the TAC/BOD put into these with so many to evaluate. Just reading them is a couple of hours at least. 

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2 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Grant what make car to you run and how long have you been racing ?

Tracking karts then cars for 20 years. Before Kevin at KSR took over I was the primary builder of the Flatout Z32. I had FTD at all but two races I did in the Z32, but it only won twice. I've got an NC Miata built now, for WRL and Champ. We haven't raced it yet but will be at VIR.

WRL inspired me to come back to endurance racing, but I'd like to run ChampCar too.

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3 hours ago, red0 said:

Yea, you might actually be able to get the running costs lower in WRL. 

An example is that if you need 250HP, you might as well go with an aluminum LS and then detune. Go ahead and dry sump and run all the coolers your heart desires. For a transmission you could go with something designed to handle high torque like a TREMEC TR-6060. Other than shocks, suspension components are nearly open, so you can certainly make that reliable. 

I'm thinking the initial build might be 3x+ the costs, but the running costs and reliability could possible be better in WRL. 

I was referring to a more normal build.

e.g. my NC is made for both series. If I did the sensible thing and aimed for GP2 instead of stretching to get in to GP1, I don't see how the build costs would be much different?

Maybe you'd spend a few hundred more on beefier RX8 hubs and suspension components. Otherwise you should change rear hubs and bearings after each race.

Stock-diameter springs can work as well as coilovers, but depending on how you value your time can be more expensive.

We'd have a diff and maybe trans cooler for a WRL-only build. This would increase build cost but drop running costs a lot. NC LSDs are clutched, expensive, and not terribly reliable. You could alternatively switch to a Quaife and probably not need a cooler.

We'd do a baffled oil pan for a WRL-only build too. Not required, but worth it for added protection.

Since WRL does not have pit stop time limits and only allows one impact gun over the wall at a time, we would not consider any tire so soft it had to be changed mid-race. This could lower running costs a lot.

The NC comes with an oil cooler, good oil pan, etc., so it wouldn't change a lot for WRL-only. Some cars need a lot more reliability mods.

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

Oh no. Seriously Troy, it's getting out of hand. I can't imagine the hours that the TAC/BOD put into these with so many to evaluate. Just reading them is a couple of hours at least. 

But they are all amazing, you know me. I keep a list on my phone when I am at races and see things that could need adjustments. Highlights, free fender flares- no one is taking laps on them and the way we bend up fenders make the cars look like a bunch of lemons rejects, free alum rad that is the same size and capacity as stock, points for no stock alt, points for not stock starter, define shock/ strut tower brace, black flag cars doing to slow under fcy or pace car, free accusump, free coolers, 25mph speed limit in the pit lane for all tracks to be consistent, only two wheels off one side at impound, tire rules based on the thread now going on, add CF wing and splitter for 20 points.

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35 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

But they are all amazing, you know me. I keep a list on my phone when I am at races and see things that could need adjustments. Highlights, free fender flares- no one is taking laps on them and the way we bend up fenders make the cars look like a bunch of lemons rejects, free alum rad that is the same size and capacity as stock, points for no stock alt, points for not stock starter, define shock/ strut tower brace, black flag cars doing to slow under fcy or pace car, free accusump, free coolers, 25mph speed limit in the pit lane for all tracks to be consistent, only two wheels off one side at impound, tire rules based on the thread now going on, add CF wing and splitter for 20 points.

I don't disagree...not all of the petitions were bad. But I think it sort of goes against the mantra of rules stability when the membership itself is submitting...what...over 100 petitions? 

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53 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I don't disagree...not all of the petitions were bad. But I think it sort of goes against the mantra of rules stability when the membership itself is submitting...what...over 100 petitions? 

How many unique individuals submitted them though really?  Sounded like a few people submitted lots of them.

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9 hours ago, Snorman said:

I don't disagree...not all of the petitions were bad. But I think it sort of goes against the mantra of rules stability when the membership itself is submitting...what...over 100 petitions? 

A lot are repeats, but if most get denied then it is rules stability hehe.

 

A bunch are safety items I saw. I put one forth for 4 years in a row on not having open fueling, meaning a jug poured into a funnel. I have seen so much spillage on those and was worried someone was going to get really hurt. I was adamant about getting those removed.

 

Also, most of my petitions I think are for Champcar overall moving forward and not just to benefit myself and some hurt me, but I feel that it would be better to have them.

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8 hours ago, QuaTTro said:

How many unique individuals submitted them though really?  Sounded like a few people submitted lots of them.

I think 3 of us, Me, Huggy and someone else submitted about 75 of them, so about 2/3rds come from 3 people.  Most of Chris's are technical writing items or he has the same petition written 3 times in different wording or options. I have done that also as the BOD has said that it will only accept a petition how it is written and not options or changes. If I submit a petition that says you can only use X amount of tires a race day and say let X be defined by the BOD and TAC they would deny that petition as they said they had to have specifics. I would submit a petition that says 6 in a 7 or 8 hour race, I would submit one that said 5 in a 7 or 8 hour race and then they would pick the one they felt was best.

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