Engine swap, what about Intake? Any OE is free?

[turbogrill]

Hi,

 

2021:

4.5.3.1. Any OE exhaust manifold from a vehicle on the VPI List can be used on a swapped engine for zero (0) points. Aftermarket headers will be 25-points on all vehicles regardless of fitment issues.

What about intake manifold? If exhaust is free wouldn't the same apply on intake? This would be for fitment issues when swapping a FWD engine into a RWD engine, often the RWD intake from a the same model can be used (Miata intake on Mazda 3 engine)

 

It used to be free?

 

At least that is what techdesk says, https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=15 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by turbogrill

[wvumtnbkr]

That is only for cars that were specifically asked about it.

 

If you submit a tech desk question, you will get an official answer.

 

From my perspective, they should not be free.  

 

I had to turn my stock intake around and take points for pulleys to move the accessories around on my fwd engine into rwd car.  However, I DO have a pending tech desk question with this in mind. 

 

In other words, I ain't know.  Lolzers.

[enginerd]

None of this should have ever been allowed... this is a builders’ series, builders can get around “fitment issues”. I’ll post pictures later of our intake manifold (next to a stock unit) for the FWD to RWD engine swap...

 

There are cases where serious gains can be made by swapping intakes or exhaust manifolds with other bolt-on factory units. Here’s a BMW example, +20 hp by putting the e36 325i intake on an e36 328i engine.

https://www.rmeuropean.com/bmw-m50-manifold.aspx

[turbogrill]

Thanks,

 

Curious about why it's case by case, maybe if it gives a performance boost or not. For the 2.5 swap into 2.0 Miata there is no performance benefit to use the intake that fits, just saves you a bunch of hassle.

 

Seems like swaps are getting less and less doable for 50pts, more like 75-100 points in reality.

 

 

 

[enginerd]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

Thanks,

 

Curious about why it's case by case, maybe if it gives a performance boost or not. For the 2.5 swap into 2.0 Miata there is no performance benefit to use the intake that fits, just saves you a bunch of hassle.

 

Seems like swaps are getting less and less doable for 50pts, more like 75-100 points in reality.

Originally it was case by case because specific teams came to tech asking for exemptions. If you had a swap which worked fine, there was no need to ask for a free header / intake exchange. 
I think it started with fox mustang swaps getting headers for fitment?? Then the ecotec miatas joined in. 
Our swap is 50, required custom fabbing on almost everything but we made it work with almost exclusively modified stock parts.

[Black Magic]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

Thanks,

 

Curious about why it's case by case, maybe if it gives a performance boost or not. For the 2.5 swap into 2.0 Miata there is no performance benefit to use the intake that fits, just saves you a bunch of hassle.

 

Seems like swaps are getting less and less doable for 50pts, more like 75-100 points in reality.

 

 

 

 

The 240 SX was the only car allowed in the rules last year to swap intake, at least that I ever heard of. I am not sure if that exception still exists, I know it was under review since several other cars have similar fitment issues.

 

In the past some teams looked the other way and swapped intakes claiming it as part of the engine swap. This was in the era where each region could have their own tech guys, and you could end up with different answers depending on where you did your yearly tech. 

 

Keep in mind that on the neons you have to claim non OE intake to reuse the OE neon intake (to allow you to close the hood) when doing the 2.4 swap. Should put in perspective your odds of getting an exemption. The idea of treating swaps as a "new car vpi" has been brought up before, which might be what you are thinking (where you would homologate a set of parts required create the new car and give that combo a vpi). That idea obviously hasn't taken off yet, so for now you would need to claim the intake as non oe or get that tig welder out.....

Edited November 4, 2020 by Black Magic

[morganf]

5 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

The 240 SX was the only car allowed in the rules last year to swap intake, at least that I ever heard of. I am not sure if that exception still exists, I know it was under review since several other cars have similar fitment issues.

When does a tech desk decision no longer apply? Does it get erased at the end of the year and you need to ask again? The was a petition that got voted down then the Exhaust manifold was clarified as needing to be from the VPI list.
Reposting for reference https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=15

Edited November 5, 2020 by morganf

[ABR-Glen]

9 hours ago, enginerd said:

Originally it was case by case because specific teams came to tech asking for exemptions. If you had a swap which worked fine, there was no need to ask for a free header / intake exchange. 
I think it started with fox mustang swaps getting headers for fitment?? Then the ecotec miatas joined in. 
Our swap is 50, required custom fabbing on almost everything but we made it work with almost exclusively modified stock parts.

Yeah, no special case for E30 swaps...*cough* inflated swap weight *cough*...nothing to see here...same rules for everyone...if they can do it so can you...etc

[hotchkis23]

10 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

Yeah, no special case for E30 swaps...*cough* inflated swap weight *cough*...nothing to see here...same rules for everyone...if they can do it so can you...etc

It's all fun and games when a weight exception to allow a specific engine to fit turns out to allow something a little bit different and maybe a little bit better...either way, as we have been told, actual weights don't matter.

[Slugworks Paul]

In the sake of consistency, if they're allowing OEM intake manifold changes on swap cars, it should be allowed by all.

[Team Infiniti]

10 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

In the sake of consistency, if they're allowing OEM intake manifold changes on swap cars, it should be allowed by all.

You’re advocating for free intake manifolds for non-swap cars Or are you holding to the stance no one gets a free intake manifold, make it fit?

[Slugworks Paul]

26 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

You’re advocating for free intake manifolds for non-swap cars Or are you holding to the stance no one gets a free intake manifold, make it fit?

Pick one, as long as it's consistent

[Team Infiniti]

9 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Pick one, as long as it's consistent

It’s been consistent, if your swap engine does not fit with the manifolds (fwd in a rwd )you can get another set to make the engine fit the chassis

[ABR-Glen]

2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

It's all fun and games when a weight exception to allow a specific engine to fit turns out to allow something a little bit different and maybe a little bit better...either way, as we have been told, actual weights don't matter.

 

I forgot to put a winky at the end of my post, it was intended as just a friendly ribbing for Nathan

[hotchkis23]

3 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

I forgot to put a winky at the end of my post, it was intended as just a friendly ribbing for Nathan

Understood, I'm all for outside the box.  I forgot some green font as well.  Maybe...

[Slugworks Paul]

1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

It’s been consistent, if your swap engine does not fit with the manifolds (fwd in a rwd )you can get another set to make the engine fit the chassis

 

That is by definition not consistent. It gives an advantage to swap cars that it doesn't give to non-swap cars. 

What is the actual justification for allowing swap cars a power upgrade? (even if in the name of 'making it work' - we all know how to play that game). You have to think like a racer when you write these rules, and any saavy racer is going to parlay that into an advantage quite easily.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Slugworks Paul

[Team Infiniti]

1 minute ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

That is by definition not consistent. It gives an advantage to swap cars that it doesn't give to non-swap cars. 

Personal feelings on the matter are: we should be able to swap exhaust manifolds from the VPI list but the intake manifold is the swappers problem, that’s not the way the rule is written and a swap is for advantage Or why would someone do it

[turbogrill]

6 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Personal feelings on the matter are: we should be able to swap exhaust manifolds from the VPI list but the intake manifold is the swappers problem, that’s not the way the rule is written and a swap is for advantage Or why would someone do it

 

Just curious, why would the exhaust be free but not the intake? More rooom for shenanigans with intake manifold?

[enginerd]

7 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Just curious, why would the exhaust be free but not the intake? More rooom for shenanigans with intake manifold?

The original case that I remember was mustang swaps. V8 intakes are up top and don’t get in the way of anything, exhaust will come down the sides and may interfere with subframe. I think it is normally the case that exhaust can be more obstructive than intakes.

[turbogrill]

2 hours ago, enginerd said:

The original case that I remember was mustang swaps. V8 intakes are up top and don’t get in the way of anything, exhaust will come down the sides and may interfere with subframe. I think it is normally the case that exhaust can be more obstructive than intakes.

 

I guess for FWD into RWD is the opposite

 

Intake always end up pointing towards the driver into the firewall. 

 

 

Or everything costs and we remove the 50pts base cost. For instance with the 2.5 Mazda swap you don't need engine mounts or adapter plates, but you do need intake and you want to do header. 

 

Anyhow, I am more of a bolt-ons guy

Edited November 6, 2020 by turbogrill
rant

[Frenchy]

As a card carrying certified practicing Luddite it is against my religious beliefs to have electrons handle fuel. 
Therefore I wish to reverse engineer my engine to use carbs.  SU carbs specifically  which according to factory papers will cost me 18 horsepower.  I will use a factory manifold, and SU carbs.  
      Since the prince of darkness ( Lucas )  is not reliable and works for the Devil.  How much penalty will I incur reverting back to the 60’s?  

[Team Infiniti]

11 minutes ago, Frenchy said:

As a card carrying certified practicing Luddite it is against my religious beliefs to have electrons handle fuel. 
Therefore I wish to reverse engineer my engine to use carbs.  SU carbs specifically  which according to factory papers will cost me 18 horsepower.  I will use a factory manifold, and SU carbs.  
      Since the prince of darkness ( Lucas )  is not reliable and works for the Devil.  How much penalty will I incur reverting back to the 60’s?  

Welcome back!

 

The intake and carbs will cost swap points UNLESS you have them on a identical platform that had them @ some point, in witch, you name the year of your chassis to represent what is presented. (everything has to match the earlier year config)

[Bandit]

5 hours ago, Frenchy said:

As a card carrying certified practicing Luddite it is against my religious beliefs to have electrons handle fuel. 
Therefore I wish to reverse engineer my engine to use carbs.  SU carbs specifically  which according to factory papers will cost me 18 horsepower.  I will use a factory manifold, and SU carbs.  
      Since the prince of darkness ( Lucas )  is not reliable and works for the Devil.  How much penalty will I incur reverting back to the 60’s?  

As Ed said, if your platform had that at some point claim that year. Otherwise intake is 25 pts and 1 to a dozen carbs will also run 25 points, so 50 points total. A brace of Webers costs the same points as a single Holley.

[QuaTTro]

23 minutes ago, Bandit said:

As Ed said, if your platform had that at some point claim that year. Otherwise intake is 25 pts and 1 to a dozen carbs will also run 25 points, so 50 points total. A brace of Webers costs the same points as a single Holley.

You can only claim that year if you change everything on the car to that year, not just the carbs.