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Tire Poll Question


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Tire Rule Poll  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think the current tire rules we have are fine or do we need to revamp the rules to limit specific tires by banning or penalty laps for them or a rule to punish teams to change tires during a race?

    • The rules are just fine the way they are.
      24
    • We need to ban certain tires.
      9
    • We should have a penality lap rule for certain tires.
      3
    • We should peanlize changing tire/s during a race.
      19
    • No limits on brand, but do limit total tires used per race or per race weekend (actual limit TBD)
      19


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2 hours ago, Racer28173 said:

Ray-

I think you need to take JSK off of that list.  Yes - at Nelson we absolutely blew through tires.  But that was an experiment that went horribly wrong, not an intentional strategy. If you look at the races we’ve won, almost all of them involved zero tire changes or one tire towards the end of the race.  Changing tires is never a part of our race plan. 

How often do yo start a race on used tires?

Edited by ABR-Glen
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A variable that I have not seen mentioned much in this discussion is the track being used.  On our old Piggy Saab 900, Rival S at Road Atlanta, easily ran more than 14 hours.  A much lower grip, longer lasting BFG at Rockingham or CMP would at best make 6-7 hours with steel belts showing.  Rival S on a Miata more than 24 hours at VIR.  Rival S on our new Mini look like they will be good for extended periods on low wear tracks.  RS4 on the Mini based on 20 hours at Charlotte, might last a staggeringly long time on easy wear circuits.  

 

Totally freedom on wheel diameter & width and associated tire sizing can be argued as a reducer of tire costs from a wear standpoint but taken together are ultimately also performance enhancers.  Limiting aspect ratio as one post noted is problematic as many of the newer cars now allowed, our Mini included, never had tires with more than 55 or 60 aspect ratio, some less than that.  While tire costs are certainly a concern and those with the ability to spend on tires will benefit, the bigger issue really is all of the allowed mods that are the true origin of speed creep and costs.

 

That said some sort of rules on wheel option would help constrain things.  Say allow cars OE on less than 15" diameter wheels to move to 15"; cars OE on 16" may move to 17" diameter; those OE on 17" or larger must retain stock diameter; and a width limit of 7" for OE widths of 6" or less; 1" over stock widths that at greater than or equal to 7", would automatically constrain tire options and ultimate performance.  

 

Trying to restrict use of certain tires will be a never ending battle unless a single spec tire becomes a requirement.  A tread wear limit, as now used, is one option but ongoing tire evolution will keep pushing the limits based on market demands.  The various TW200 performance tires favored in the autocross world from all tire manufacturers have steadily evolved to higher and higher levels of performance.  Has anyone noticed that Michelin, the company that has kept me employed for a long time, recently began releasing a new version of the Pilot Sport Cup 2 (Connect (240)) with TW=240?

 

There really is now simple solution.  Were I to propose a rule it would be something on the wheels as I've noted above.  Think about how that might impact the car a vocal group seems to be beating up over tire use, which if they are going 6-8 hours on a set of Rival S, that is as good or better than our old 140hp Saab would do at some tracks on TW>400 tires... 

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Summary. As laps go up, rs-4 gets faster re71r and z3 slower (re71r moreso)

Averages of the 7 laps:

Z3: 50.36

Re71r: 50.66

Rs-4: 50.45

I would also like to point out that the percentage difference between the best rs-4 lap and re71r lap would not yield the 2-4 seconds per lap people are throwing around for the 'cheater' tires.

It is possible that the re71r responds better as a bolt on speed tire to a mediocre setup. A car could be set up to be fast on all of these. The teams beating you and me on Bridgestones would beat us on rs4s.

 

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3 hours ago, wd6681 said:

 

Summary. As laps go up, rs-4 gets faster re71r and z3 slower (re71r moreso)

Averages of the 7 laps:

Z3: 50.36

Re71r: 50.66

Rs-4: 50.45

I would also like to point out that the percentage difference between the best rs-4 lap and re71r lap would not yield the 2-4 seconds per lap people are throwing around for the 'cheater' tires.

It is possible that the re71r responds better as a bolt on speed tire to a mediocre setup. A car could be set up to be fast on all of these. The teams beating you and me on Bridgestones would beat us on rs4s.

 

I do not agree with this analysis.....

 

I have driven in cars that have been on the podium and won races this year and last that had both rs4 and re71r.  The re71r is considerably faster.

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3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I do not agree with this analysis.....

 

I have driven in cars that have been on the podium and won races this year and last that had both rs4 and re71r.  The re71r is considerably faster.

I do not agree either and have talked to a lot of teams. If it was only 1 second faster and wears out 3-5x faster no one would ever use them.

 

I have driven a car, back to back days, with RE71R and RS4 and was 1.5 faster, but I drove the RE71R first and the RS4 after in which I knew the track better so the difference should have been more.

 

I have a set of RE71R and RS4 mounted and plan to test in the spring, once a new engine is in the car this winter. I will gladly share my findings.

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The results of the pole are getting interesting.   There is a pretty good majority that would like to see either a penalty on pit stops or a limit on the number of tires used in a weekend.     Seems like a good share of people that would like to see some sort of limit on tire spending.    I personally think either the pit stop penalty or the limit per weekend could work very well.

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8 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I do not agree with this analysis.....

 

I have driven in cars that have been on the podium and won races this year and last that had both rs4 and re71r.  The re71r is considerably faster.

How could you draw this conclusion unless it was the same car, same day, same track and ambient conditions? 

We have only ran the A052s twice, and never in sunny (higher surface temp) or warmer conditions, so no idea how they behave after they get hot. RS4s are consistent. 

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The problem is that it will be very hard to address penalties or limits for teams that start on used tires or suffer a failure, damage, puncture, contact, etc..

How/who defines "used"?

How to track failures, damage, punctures, contact, etc.?

The teams that want to get the most out of used tires may see their costs increase because they can't use enough tires or get penalized for changes. 

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4 hours ago, wd6681 said:

Great, please share your data.

I will try to grab my plots to show you if you need proof, but there is a real world speed difference.  We've tested Rivals vs. RS4s vs. RE71Rs (two different sizes) with multiple test days (we've spent several thousand dollars to do this).  The combined G-plots show that the RE71-Rs and Rival S's have more grip than the RS4 which you can physically feel.  its almost foolish to suggest otherwise if you've driven on the different compounds.

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

I will try to grab my plots to show you if you need proof, but there is a real world speed difference.  We've tested Rivals vs. RS4s vs. RE71Rs (two different sizes) with multiple test days (we've spent several thousand dollars to do this).  The combined G-plots show that the RE71-Rs and Rival S's have more grip than the RS4 which you can physically feel.  its almost foolish to suggest otherwise if you've driven on the different compounds.

My intention is not to dispell anything. Just bring some science to this; before the club takes away liberties based on what at this point is an opinion rather than multiple sources demonstrating a measurable difference in average speed. Generic seconds per lap cannot be taken seriously. We race on tracks that take a little over a minute to circulate and tracks that take well over 2 minutes. Average speed is the best way to compare. 

Based on your collecting of data I am pretty sure you probably can access some form of average such as average of green laps for 1 driver.

Excited to get some free data!!

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8 minutes ago, wd6681 said:

My intention is not to dispell anything. Just bring some science to this; before the club takes away liberties based on what at this point is an opinion rather than multiple sources demonstrating a measurable difference in average speed. Generic seconds per lap cannot be taken seriously. We race on tracks that take a little over a minute to circulate and tracks that take well over 2 minutes. Average speed is the best way to compare. 

Based on your collecting of data I am pretty sure you probably can access some form of average such as average of green laps for 1 driver.

Excited to get some free data!!

From what I have seen I would say 1 second per 60 second lap time is being conservative, but a good number to go with. Road America would be 3 seconds. Nelson Ledges around 1 to 1.5 seconds.

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14 hours ago, wd6681 said:

 

Summary. As laps go up, rs-4 gets faster re71r and z3 slower (re71r moreso)

Averages of the 7 laps:

Z3: 50.36

Re71r: 50.66

Rs-4: 50.45

I would also like to point out that the percentage difference between the best rs-4 lap and re71r lap would not yield the 2-4 seconds per lap people are throwing around for the 'cheater' tires.

It is possible that the re71r responds better as a bolt on speed tire to a mediocre setup. A car could be set up to be fast on all of these. The teams beating you and me on Bridgestones would beat us on rs4s.

 

Not disputing data but 7 laps = approx 30 min , what about the other 800 min? 
 

The g force diff is a shock first time running the good stuff.

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