Building first champ car. Between 2 cars. Have swap questions

[Efchassis]

I friend of mine has a champ car and has been trying to talk me into building one. I'm a honda guy, and have 2 candidates in my yard. A 90 crx si, and a gsr integra. I'm curious about the vpi and swapping the crx. I used the swap calculator for swapping in a b16. 160 hp. Is this doable? My crx has factory optioned rear disc brakes so it'd be a perfect light car for champ IF I can swap it and not go over 500 points. The integra would make more power stock but be heavier. Any help or info is appreciated. Gonna get started on one of them at the beginning of the year

 

[thomasp]

Both of these vehicles are limited by fuel capacity.  Based on stock fuel capacity, 1990 Honda CRX has 11.9 gallons and the Integra GS-R has 13.2 gallons. You can run a 1/2 gallon surge tank and utilize a Holley fuel mat which allows you to run the tank empty.  By the rules, the fuel capacity can be increased by 2 gallons if you install a fuel cell.

Note: Both the surge tank and the fuel cell installation are zero points.

The CRX swap to the B16 160 HP would increase the VPI {Vehicle Performance Index} by 50 points to 200 points. I believe that the R.Banks' CRX runs this motor and does very well.

The Integra GS-R  starts at 325 points.

[Efchassis]

200 points leaves a lot of meat on the table as far as suspension. Is there restrictions on how light the cars can be?

[karman1970]

8 minutes ago, Efchassis said:

200 points leaves a lot of meat on the table as far as suspension. Is there restrictions on how light the cars can be?

No.

 

You'll have another 25 points for a transaxle as well unless you can figure out how to mate the CRX trans to a B series.  Why do you want to do a B16 instead of a K24?  They came in a 160hp version as well I think.

[Efchassis]

Because I've had great luck with the b16. High revving, great reliability and easy to work on. My old car I autocrossed a few times weighed in under 1900 with me in it. I'm not a k series fan, so to speak

[Efchassis]

Also, k24 doesn't like to give you clearance in a crx. If you can't cut the hood, you can't lower them. Well, you can, the pan will just be hanging over an inch below the subframe

 

 

[Efchassis]

Also, what's a competitive coilovers/spring and strut combo? Worth the points for full bodied coilovers vs sleeves?

[wvumtnbkr]

I'm happy with bilstein and sleeves on my car.  Don't know the Honda world.  Sorry.

[karman1970]

H&R OE-style race springs on orange Konis used to be a winning combo.  Don't know if that is still the case.  The knowledgeable ones in the Honda realm should chime in hear before long.

 

[Efchassis]

I used to run ground control coilover sleeves with konis and it was a really good budget setup until I moved to progressives with custom rates

[enginerd]

I have helped (a little) with and watched a CRX build over the last 3ish years by a veteran Honda team that has won with a medley of Honda / Acura vehicles in the last 10 years. With the CRX there has been much success, much failure. The amount of time put into making that car reliable and fast enough to podium is just absurd. Maybe they built the mousetrap wrong and a different approach would be equal with less work? I doubt it. So my advice is to go with the the GS-R, because there’s no way it will be as difficult to campaign as the CRX. 

[mender]

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

I have helped (a little) with and watched a CRX build over the last 3ish years by a veteran Honda team that has won with a medley of Honda / Acura vehicles in the last 10 years. With the CRX there has been much success, much failure. The amount of time put into making that car reliable and fast enough to podium is just absurd. Maybe they built the mousetrap wrong and a different approach would be equal with less work? I doubt it. So my advice is to go with the the GS-R, because there’s no way it will be as difficult to campaign as the CRX. 

Interesting. 

 

The Civic I'm running now is basically a GS-R drive train and front suspension grafted onto the rest of the car. I think the CRX would be much the same.

[mender]

2 minutes ago, mender said:

Interesting. 

 

The Civic I'm running now is basically a GS-R drive train and front suspension grafted onto the rest of the car. I think the CRX would be much the same.

Edit: My lack of Honda knowledge shows; the CRX is the same as the earlier Civic, not the EG that I'm running.

[karman1970]

17 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I have helped (a little) with and watched a CRX build over the last 3ish years by a veteran Honda team that has won with a medley of Honda / Acura vehicles in the last 10 years. With the CRX there has been much success, much failure. The amount of time put into making that car reliable and fast enough to podium is just absurd. Maybe they built the mousetrap wrong and a different approach would be equal with less work? I doubt it. So my advice is to go with the the GS-R, because there’s no way it will be as difficult to campaign as the CRX. 

 

I would never do a FWD Honda again; but if I did, a GSR would probably be second on my list behind a standard Integra LS.  As long as you can't buy fuel, it's hard to pass up the extra capacity.  Plus, they already have all the same bits most people end up swapping into a Civic anyway.

[Efchassis]

Is there some sort of weight penalty for the lightness of a car? Because I know from experience, I can get a crx to kite level lightness with a cage. Light, as in 400 pounds or close to, lighter than an integra.

[turbogrill]

Why is the CRX so bad to race? It's looks awesome.....

[thomasp]

11 hours ago, turbogrill said:

Why is the CRX so bad to race? It's looks awesome.....

11.9 gallons

[turbogrill]

6 hours ago, thomasp said:

11.9 gallons

 

same as a miata? 

 

Fuel cell + surge tank + long 3 inch filler pipe?

[Efchassis]

So fuel is a really big deal

[turbogrill]

22 minutes ago, Efchassis said:

So fuel is a really big deal

 

We didn't do fuel cell since it would require a lot of fabbing but installed a hydramat and a surge tank and external fuel pump. That gave us enough fuel for our local track in our miata. Sometimes the internal fuel pump housing is pretty large. 

Next step would be a huge filler, but I want to mess around with fuel as little as possible.

 

What tracks are you running? We can do 2hours on our local track but not at COTA.

 

[karman1970]

39 minutes ago, Efchassis said:

So fuel is a really big deal

It's not the end all, be all.  But yeah, it's pretty important because it's the one thing you can't really change once you settle on a car.  You can go up two gallons over stock if you install a fuel cell, that's it.  That said, if you can actually get a CRX down to sub-1500 lbs with fuel and ready to race, then fuel capacity won't be much concern.  Might not be able to go a full 2 hours running maximum pace, but with the power:weight you'll have you should be able to back off if you need to conserve fuel and still turn really good lap times.

 

If I was a CRX owner, the main thing I'd be worried about is having the "swap weight" changed in the future if swapped CRXs start winning a bunch, making the B16 swap harder if not obsolete.  The one I saw at Indy was really fast when it was running.  I think it showed up to Road America and set some blistering times up there as well.

 

Edit: the old advice still holds true though - if you have a platform you know really well, that's often a good place to start.

Edited December 16, 2020 by karman1970