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Radiators and Flywheels?


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I will go ahead and speak from the Board of Directors.  This is from my seat and not as a whole from the BOD and my thoughts. I try to be honest and keep everyone in the loop.  I feel that is the best

I've expressed my opinions to the board.  I dunno what happened in the TAC, but IMO y'all missed the ball on this one. <shrug> 🤷‍♀️   To answer your question though, I wouldn't determin

I'm extremely disappointed in how this was handled.  Thats all I really should say.

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This has become such a convoluted mess it makes me wonder what processes do we have in place. Who writes the rules, who checks the rules, who thinks about how the rules will affect all teams? 

 

Current rules

4.3.2

Flywheel / Clutch - Aluminum / performance “light-weight” SFI recommended rated flywheels with stock type clutch: 10 ptsFlywheel / Clutch - Multi-disc and / or smaller diameter clutch/flywheel systems: 50 pts

 

4.7.2

Flywheel - All flywheels must be OE, OE equivalent, or SFI rated.Unmodified, SFI rated steel flywheel with similar dimensions and stock type / single disc clutch are zero points. Dual-mass flywheels may be converted to single-mass meeting above specifications for zero points.

 

Change to this

4.3.2

Flywheel - Aluminum / performance “light-weight” (SFI recommended) flywheels with stock type clutch: 10 pts

Clutch - Multi-disc and / or smaller diameter clutch systems: 50 pts

 

4.7.2

Flywheel - OE, OE equivalent, or SFI rated steel with similar dimensions and stock type/size single disc clutch are zero points.

Dual-mass flywheels may be converted to single-mass meeting above specifications for zero points.

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Flywheel / Clutch - Aluminum / performance “light-weight” SFI recommended rated flywheels with stock type clutch: 10 pts

Items that are points free:  Unmodified, SFI rated steel flywheel with similar dimensions and stock type / single disc clutch are zero points.

 

So is this zero points or 10 points?   https://shop.exedyusa.com/exedy-racing-clutch/exedy-racing-lightweight-flywheel/zf505/i-412621.aspx

This product meets both definitions. 

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We're working on the tongue twister portion.

The intent is "SFI rating recommended"  (but not required, due to proof difficulty, and following other organizations.)

 

It was explained to me that free portions of thh FW and clutch are listed in 4.7, under the free parts section.

FW and clutch pars in 4.3.2 incur points. Makes sense to me after it was explained - the division was to place FPV and free parts in their righteous places.

 

P.S. TAC, BoD, and Media are working on wording to eliminate all the confusion. Yes, we realize it's still not clear...

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I love how the "haves" and "have nots" just got farther apart with this whole deal.

 

Your car has a lightweight chromoly flywheel option, you can now run it for free (so commonly raced cars, yay!)

 

Your car is rare or obscure or not commonly raced, good luck!

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7 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Flywheel / Clutch - Aluminum / performance “light-weight” SFI recommended rated flywheels with stock type clutch: 10 pts

Items that are points free:  Unmodified, SFI rated steel flywheel with similar dimensions and stock type / single disc clutch are zero points.

 

So is this zero points or 10 points?   https://shop.exedyusa.com/exedy-racing-clutch/exedy-racing-lightweight-flywheel/zf505/i-412621.aspx

This product meets both definitions. 

Mark’s explained that is 0 points as I understand it.  They feel they can’t easily tech the difference between that and a stock weight FW. But an Aluminum one that weighs the same is 10pts. 

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7 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Flywheel / Clutch - Aluminum / performance “light-weight” SFI recommended rated flywheels with stock type clutch: 10 pts

Items that are points free:  Unmodified, SFI rated steel flywheel with similar dimensions and stock type / single disc clutch are zero points.

 

So is this zero points or 10 points?   https://shop.exedyusa.com/exedy-racing-clutch/exedy-racing-lightweight-flywheel/zf505/i-412621.aspx

This product meets both definitions. 

 

+1....exactly what I want to know as well. 

 

(I thought every race car in the universe had these types of cheap flywheels and some non-OEM friction disk)

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Hey Tyler, thanks for putting this to bed.  

 

Edit:  Not a knock on Tyler.  In spite of the last wording tweaks that need to be made this should be done.  Next subject.

Edited by Burningham
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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

I love how the "haves" and "have nots" just got farther apart with this whole deal.

 

Your car has a lightweight chromoly flywheel option, you can now run it for free (so commonly raced cars, yay!)

 

Your car is rare or obscure or not commonly raced, good luck!

What would be your suggestion Chris? There seems to be a lot of critique, but not many solutions being offered up.

How would you determine if a steel/chromoly FW was lightweight, and thus assign points for it?

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10 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

What would be your suggestion Chris? There seems to be a lot of critique, but not many solutions being offered up.

How would you determine if a steel/chromoly FW was lightweight, and thus assign points for it?

- All vehicles must have an access hole for a 1/2” diameter bore scope to inspect the output side of the flywheel/clutch assembly. 
 

This is something very simple to do. Many cars already have access holes. Those that do not can easily drill a 1/2” hole.  It can even be done in impound if someone fails to “remember” to do this.  

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5 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

What would be your suggestion Chris? There seems to be a lot of critique, but not many solutions being offered up.

Ho would you determine if a steel/chromoly FW was lightweight, and thus assign points for it?

I've expressed my opinions to the board.  I dunno what happened in the TAC, but IMO y'all missed the ball on this one. <shrug> 🤷‍♀️

 

To answer your question though, I wouldn't determine if flywheel is lightweight or not, regardless of material.  It doesn't matter and we have much bigger fish to fry.  We've got VISIBLE issues of unclaimed parts that have gotten by recently that are more important...  

 

You can tell a multi-disk clutch with your ear generally.  At least one that "matters" from a performance perspective, if the cost is a concern.  If tech wants to look at clutches and flywheels let them practice on these and see how it goes.

 

Flywheels designed for generally "stock" type clutches just cant cost enough to really be a concern from that perspective.  The really expensive mess that was apparently a huge concern is only when you start talking multi-plate clutches.

But restricting flywheels to only steel will cause teams all sorts of headaches.  A stock flywheel for a 1980 tunaslapper might just be silly expensive enough that it matters.  Maybe said 1980 tunaslapper doesn't have a steel flywheel option?  What if a team from AER or WRL might want to come race with us, but now they have to change a flywheel to race in "non ec", or you know, just not claim it and see what happens... 

 

Its a pick your battles situation.  Yea, non-oe and free parts, but this battle really isn't the hill I want to die on, not sure why it became that for some of the people who are making decisions, at the same time we just gave away eleventy dollars worth of free brakes.

 

Now we have the situation where team A can get a super light chromoly flywheel for their car and run it for zero points, but for team B there is no chromoly flywheel option so they either have to pay points for an aluminum one, get a CU$TOM chromoly one made, or run stock. 

 

I really tried to stay out of it and be respectful, but yesterday when I found out the BCCR was released before I even had a chance to review it and make comments I really blew my top.  I suppose there's no requirement for champcar to ask my opinion on their rules as I'm just a volunteer tech writer at this time, however there are a few issues with what was released that I could have identified and headed off before it hit the presses.

 

 

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I agree (and tech has voiced a similar opinion) that the multi disk clutch is a bigger issue than a lightweight flywheel. I also pointed out to the tac just as you said that usually you can detect these by ear because the motor is so much quicker revving.

there are those on the board though that feel that a replacement fly wheel, or any type of replacement part, should incur points, and that’s how they voted. As I’ve said 100 times, I would love for my aluminum fly wheel to also be zero points but I would be arguing from a biased position to do that, and many members of the tac and board do not feel the same. We don’t always get our own way. And there will always be haves and have Nots because similar parts are not offered for every single car that was ever made.

 

(Spoken from the position of a have not Since my car is one that will have to incur points because there is not a lightweight steel option available)

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11 minutes ago, Huggy said:

It doesn't matter and we have much bigger fish to fry.  We've got VISIBLE issues of unclaimed parts that have gotten by recently that are more important...  

giphy.gif

There are unclaimed non-OE headers, distributors, ignition parts, axles, oil coolers, etc. but now, all of the sudden, Tech is going to start inspecting flywheels and clutches. 

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2 minutes ago, Snorman said:

giphy.gif

There are unclaimed non-OE headers, distributors, ignition parts, axles, oil coolers, etc. but now, all of the sudden, Tech is going to start inspecting flywheels and clutches. 

Sean I agree all those problems need to be corrected. But is allowing more free parts the answer? 

You guys think your head hurts? Try working on this and coming up with a good solution that satisfies the management amd the members and everybody else who’s got a comment in between. 😊

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Also as has been stated many many times, this is about way more than just flywheels and clutches. This was tech and the TAC reeling in a lot more free items than just this. Remember free ABS, free active aero, free unlimited brakes, and more that I can’t think of off hand? All of that free stuff was in the first release of the 2021BCCR. Yeah members can bitch all you want about fly wheels and clutches but if we didn’t try to make some type of effort, costs and speed would’ve increased tenfold. Sorry we didn’t get the wording perfect on this one first time. You’re welcome for our efforts. 

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28 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Sean I agree all those problems need to be corrected. But is allowing more free parts the answer? 

As I previously stated, I think modest restrictions are reasonable. If you want to put points on high-dollar multi-disc clutches, go for it (for those that have some reason to believe that they actually offer some tangible gain). Stock diameter, "stock type" clutch, flywheel, harmonic balancers that are SFI-rated should all be zero points. I recognize that there are those who don't like the SFI-rated designation. 

There is now some ridiculous idea that a flywheel and clutch offer more of a performance gain than the now-open brakes allowed starting in 2021.  

***EDITED TO BE MORE CLEAR***

 

Edited by Snorman
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Thanks, understood. Once again, there was more to our revisions/recommendations than just FW/clutches (posted above^^) some background info regarding brake rules -  Brake rules in this series have always been somewhat generous. The previous management felt they wanted you to be able to stop your car above anything else, once again keeping safety in mind. Our modern rules set evolved from there.
2 times rules had flaws that prevented old low dollar cars from having the same choices as modern vehicles. Many petitions pointed this out. 

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32 minutes ago, Snorman said:

giphy.gif

There are unclaimed non-OE headers, distributors, ignition parts, axles, oil coolers, etc. but now, all of the sudden, Tech is going to start inspecting flywheels and clutches. 

Having big fish on the cutting board isn’t a good reason to not cook the small fish. Small fish taste good too and don’t require much more effort to cook once the oil is hot.

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8 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Thanks, understood. Once again, there was more to our revisions/recommendations than just FW/clutches (posted above^^) some background info regarding brake rules -  Brake rules in this series have always been somewhat generous. The previous management felt they wanted you to be able to stop your car above anything else, once again keeping safety in mind. Our modern rules set evolved from there.
2 times rules had flaws that prevented old low dollar cars from having the same choices as modern vehicles. Many petitions pointed this out. 

I get it. And I understand the quagmire that the newer cars brought (S2000, Porsche, etc.) relative to the 2x rule. But this seems to be a pointless witch hunt. Some modest restrictions should be sufficient. Teams that want to run multi-disc, non-OE race clutches should pay some points to dissuade it if nothing else. 

Also edited my previous post as the first sentence wasn't really inviting, lol. 

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6 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill.  If the flywheel is not stock OE for that specific make, model and year it’s 10 points.  Done, next topic please.

Yes! Chromoly / steel / aluminium / same diameter / multi disc / ‘similar enough’ / etc. all these options are confusing and confounding the very simple solution which would fit with the rest of the rulebook: 

not stock = points

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4 hours ago, Ronh911 said:

I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill.  If the flywheel is not stock OE for that specific make, model and year it’s 10 points.  Done, next topic please.

 

I think the problem it punish old/strange/weird cars where an oem flywheel is expensive.

 

But maybe those cars should get a little adjustment in their VPI for that.

 

Personally I think the close to flywheels should be zero points. Just so easy to buy an excedy 

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12 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

I think the problem it punish old/strange/weird cars where an oem flywheel is expensive.

 

But maybe those cars should get a little adjustment in their VPI for that.

 

Personally I think the close to flywheels should be zero points. Just so easy to buy an excedy 

What old / weird cars need their flywheels replaced? Our 1988 came with a working engine, which, surprise surprise, had a flywheel on it!! And that flywheel was in fine shape! And we didn’t replace it! And it worked great for 3 years!

Then that engine broke and I bought a replacement engine. Wouldn’t you know, that engine also had a flywheel on it!! We didn’t need to buy a new one. We could have even used the flywheel from the previous engine. Actually, I think we did use the one from the previous engine. 

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