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10 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

@Lethal Cliff. @Tuttle561 

This affects a few people including our new build

Does this apply to exhaust as well?

There were two petitions to ban free to make fit intake and exhaust manifolds on swap cars. They were both voted down and the free to make fit exhaust was clarified in the rules to allow one from another car on the vpi, I would have applied to the intake as well as the board voted this way. The opposite is true :(

Edited by morganf
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That’s +25 hp to my cars.. I don’t think you want that

To be fair, the incoming swap motor's hp is based on the configuration it was in from the donor vehicle. Any change in manifolds, exhaust or intake, can render that hp rating invalid, and thus violate

Exhaust and intake manifold changes should always be points. Swap or no swap.    VPI and swap points don't take into consideration performance changes swapping manifolds provide.   

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16 hours ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Yup this rule directly impacts NLS.  We have been running the 350z intake on the 96 Maxima 3.0 engine.  So now we have to either claim the 25 points for the intake manifold. Or find a way to make the 3.0 intake fit in our car.  The exhaust rule does not change anything for us we have always run OE 350z exhaust manifolds. I just bought a couple 3.0 cores from the junkyard to see if we can make the OE intake work.  I know I am biased but, I think the intake rule should be the same as the exhaust manifold rule.  Must come from a OE car on the VPI list.  Also our swap weights were changed and the swap cost is now more than the past.  I guess as a car builder I should be proud that the rule changes directly impacts us,  Must be doing something right.  We will deal with it and get faster.😉

 

Time to learn how to tig cast Aluminium.

image.png.1e2ce42b85850f1e0e41806b7a1dcfc4.png.

 

As far as I know the swap weights should not have been changed. Send me a PM on this if you can please. 

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On 12/18/2020 at 3:16 PM, Lethal Cliff said:

  I know I am biased but, I think the intake rule should be the same as the exhaust manifold rule.  Must come from a OE car on the VPI list. 

So, free exchange of OEM intakes for non-swapped BMWs then?

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38 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

to be fair,  we really don't want it on any on the BMW's   

To be fair, the incoming swap motor's hp is based on the configuration it was in from the donor vehicle. Any change in manifolds, exhaust or intake, can render that hp rating invalid, and thus violates the intent of the swap calculator.

Edited by mcoppola
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7 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

To be fair, the incoming swap motor's hp is based on the configuration it was in from the donor vehicle. Any change in manifolds, exhaust or intake, can render that hp rating invalid.

That is true, I am not an advocate for free intake manifolds but the rule is there and we were going to do it. 

 

Exhaust is another story, there are many documented cases where cast iron manifolds from the donor cannot work in the new car, allowing the use VPI cars as choice is reasonable rather than giving away headers.


as for giving away any manifolds on a non-swap car, unfathomable, people are crying about converter’s on tubular steel exhaust manifolds, cut and remove, it’s a simple as that.

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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Exhaust and intake manifold changes should always be points. Swap or no swap. 

 

VPI and swap points don't take into consideration performance changes swapping manifolds provide. 

 

Cutting, welding, and hammer blows are open.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Exhaust is another story, there are many documented cases where cast iron manifolds from the donor cannot work in the new car, allowing the use VPI cars as choice is reasonable rather than giving away header.

 

This is just as true for intakes as exhausts. Just because something doesn't fit doesn't mean it's replacement should be free. 

 

The whole "required to make it work" concept is one of my least favorite, but I suppose mounts/brackets/adapters/tc are one thing. Including any parts that change the hp of the motor is a ripe opportunity for someone to circumvent the intent of the rule.

Edited by ABR-Glen
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These “free swap” items need to be points or need to be free for everyone. I use it for a small crank pulley to make the accessories work and think it’s lame.

 

Maybe 5-10pts any non-OEM exhaust manifold from VPI list, vs 25 pts whatever headers/manifold you want except titanium/inconel.

 

Same for intake manifolds (thought that loop hole got closed years ago?). 10-15 pts for any non-OEM from VPI list and 25 for aftermarket.

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38 minutes ago, BeastZ06 said:

These “free swap” items need to be points or need to be free for everyone. I use it for a small crank pulley to make the accessories work and think it’s lame.

 

Maybe 5-10pts any non-OEM exhaust manifold from VPI list, vs 25 pts whatever headers/manifold you want except titanium/inconel.

 

Same for intake manifolds (thought that loop hole got closed years ago?). 10-15 pts for any non-OEM from VPI list and 25 for aftermarket.

I also need a few different pulleys (but still oe from an earlier engine) and claim them as 10 pts.

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8 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

This is just as true for intakes as exhausts. Just because something doesn't fit doesn't mean it's replacement should be free. 

 

The whole "required to make it work" concept is one of my least favorite, but I suppose mounts/brackets/adapters/tc are one thing. Including any parts that change the hp of the motor is a ripe opportunity for someone to circumvent the intent of the rule.

Trust me, at one point I advocated for no changes allowed to swapped engines.

 

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There seems to be a fair amount of "ball busting" on swap cars.   The swaps, in my mind, are a pretty necessary part of the series as it has evolved.  There is a need to bring newer cars into the series to stay healthy going forward, there is also a need to keep the old stuff competitive.  There have been so many barn doors left open over the years that there  is no way to compete with out swapping engines to get at least some hp in some of these old cars.  That being said, the lid has to be kept on the swaps that are available in some of the cars.    Allowing some changes to fit a swap makes perfect sense to me.  Allowing a cast exhaust manifold from a different ecotech on Miata makes sense to me, allowing the manifold from a Solstice or Sky for no points probably not.    Allowing an Intake change that makes fitment easy and doesn't ad much if any power ad, fine.    If 10 minutes of internet research says that intake swap and a tune(which is no points) on a given motor is a 30hp bump, and a common street mod, then that one should be points.  And it could be called out specifically in the rules.      

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If you allow any intake from the VPI list then the NC Miatas can get the  2.5 Mazda3/Focus engine for 50pts. (Resulting in 170whp with lots of torque)

 

I was looking into the swap but the intake manifold swap rule killed it since I don't want to reroute the intake via the driver compartment thru the firewall...

 

https://forum.champcar.org/topic/21574-engine-swap-what-about-intake-any-oe-is-free/

 

 

Edited by turbogrill
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All swaps are power adders no way around it. I have not seen a car with a properly completed swap produce less power and reduce the cars lap times. In my own case of buying a built race car I had little to no knowledge about its power train. I wanted to swap to an engine that I didn’t have to have rebuilt. I wanted to locate a reliable used/junkyard take out that could be raced(not at pointy end of the field in my case) then replaced with another. That just isn’t available for my E30.  Lots of people swap engines into the e30 but all are to gain power. I would like the benefit of a more modern and readily available engine so I don’t have to spend more on the rebuild (to stock power levels) than I did for the entire car. The advertised power of engines is just a made up number. Most if not all of then can remove a bunch of smog junk, improve the intake and exhaust and make substantial power gains. 3% to start with and 25-30% once it’s sorted. Seems like there needs to be a different approach to swaps that keeps the performance of the swapped car similar to the standard car.  

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4 minutes ago, TimS said:

All swaps are power adders no way around it. I have not seen a car with a properly completed swap produce less power and reduce the cars lap times. In my own case of buying a built race car I had little to no knowledge about its power train. I wanted to swap to an engine that I didn’t have to have rebuilt. I wanted to locate a reliable used/junkyard take out that could be raced(not at pointy end of the field in my case) then replaced with another. That just isn’t available for my E30.  Lots of people swap engines into the e30 but all are to gain power. I would like the benefit of a more modern and readily available engine so I don’t have to spend more on the rebuild (to stock power levels) than I did for the entire car. The advertised power of engines is just a made up number. Most if not all of then can remove a bunch of smog junk, improve the intake and exhaust and make substantial power gains. 3% to start with and 25-30% once it’s sorted. Seems like there needs to be a different approach to swaps that keeps the performance of the swapped car similar to the standard car.  

 

Isn't that the +50pts for the swap? 

 

For the NC miata 2.5 swap you swap in 1hp less, but with some fiddling you gain maybe +30whp and some extra torqueses. You could argue that is worth 50pts? (Same as a camshaft or headers/intake).

 

I am sure they are loop hole swaps, like a 350 TPI into a 150pts datsun and then a huge cam and you have a 300hp rust bucket missile. 

 

 

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Swap is by rule supposed to be 3% max hp more than standard engine so the additional 30hp in your example should involve some points. You can’t get 30hp out of the standard engine for 0 points. You swap in an underrated engine, remove the restrictions and tune it up and you get more power than 50 points would ever gain you on the original engine. This rule has needed a rethink for a long while. 

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On 12/20/2020 at 10:54 AM, mcoppola said:

To be fair, the incoming swap motor's hp is based on the configuration it was in from the donor vehicle. Any change in manifolds, exhaust or intake, can render that hp rating invalid, and thus violates the intent of the swap calculator.

Some have argued that swapping then paying points for an cam and intake/header still violates the intent of the swap rule, as you can create what would have been a 300pts(or worse) engine out of a 50pts engine + 50pts cam + 25pts intake + 25pts header = 150pts.

There are more extreme cases when you start head swapping the swapped motor.

Edited by morganf
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