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2 minutes ago, TimS said:

Swap is by rule supposed to be 3% max hp more than standard engine so the additional 30hp in your example should involve some points. You can’t get 30hp out of the standard engine for 0 points. You swap in an underrated engine, remove the restrictions and tune it up and you get more power than 50 points would ever gain you on the original engine. This rule has needed a rethink for a long while. 

 

For 2.0 NC:

 

Stock Engine = 167 crank hp

Swap Engine = 166 crank hp + lots of torque


Stock Engine + Header = 165whp

Swap Engine + Header = 170whp + lots of torque

 

The stock engine is a sportscar engine, the swapped  engine is a turd (From a Fusion). But once you start add modifiers to the swapped engine it really wakes up. Adding a cam on the stock engine gives a few hp, adding a cam on the swapped engine gives LOTS of power (200whp).

 

It's almost like there should be a displacement modifier for swaps, the only reason the Fusion engine makes sense it has more displacement. 

Same with the SBC swaps, large engines that sucks but with modifers they really comes alive.

 

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That’s +25 hp to my cars.. I don’t think you want that

To be fair, the incoming swap motor's hp is based on the configuration it was in from the donor vehicle. Any change in manifolds, exhaust or intake, can render that hp rating invalid, and thus violate

Exhaust and intake manifold changes should always be points. Swap or no swap.    VPI and swap points don't take into consideration performance changes swapping manifolds provide.   

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3 minutes ago, morganf said:

Some have argued that swapping then paying points for an cam and intake/header still violates the intent of the swap rule, as you can create what would have been a 300pts(or worse) engine out of a 50pts engine + 50pts cam + 25pts intake + 25pts header = 150pts.

There are more extreme cases when you start head swapping the swapped motor.

 

100% agree, I think the SBC are a great example. They suck stock but given they have insane displacement you could make them fast with 100-200pts.

 

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3 hours ago, TimS said:

Swap is by rule supposed to be 3% max hp more than standard engine so the additional 30hp in your example should involve some points. You can’t get 30hp out of the standard engine for 0 points. You swap in an underrated engine, remove the restrictions and tune it up and you get more power than 50 points would ever gain you on the original engine. This rule has needed a rethink for a long while. 

That is not true.  The 3% is just for non us engines being swapped in for no points.

 

If you want to add all the hp and want to use 200 pts to do it, you can.

 

Engine swaps are a performance benefit that you use points for just like everything else.

 

What do you think is wrong with the swap rule?  What swap car is dominating?

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Also, if you swap an engine and then pay points for go fast hp adders, what's the issue?  Sure you are allowed to make more hp than the calculator allows.  That's why there are point values for cams, etc...

 

He'll, some stock engines make more power than the calculator allows.

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

It's almost like there should be a displacement modifier for swaps, the only reason the Fusion engine makes sense it has more displacement. 

Same with the SBC swaps, large engines that sucks but with modifers they really comes alive.

 


You can just change the swap formula to incoming HP or Torque, whichever is greater. 

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Just now, Andrew D Johnson said:


You can just change the swap formula to incoming HP or Torque, whichever is greater. 

You shut your mouth good sir.  

 

You have found my loophole!

 

I haz  all the torques!

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2 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

 

The hp or tq was my suggestion from a few years ago when I brought up that there are SBC engines rated at 145hp. 

 

holy shit!

Make: Opel
Model: GT
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 75
Car Weight: 1865
Original HP: 80
New HP: 145
Points Added to VPi: 81
--->NEW VPI: 156
 

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2 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

 

The hp or tq was my suggestion from a few years ago when I brought up that there are SBC engines rated at 145hp. 

There are 3.5 liter v6s rated at 200 hp too....   but, they make the torques!

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Make: Opel
Model: GT
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 75
Car Weight: 1865
Original HP: 80
New HP: 110
Points Added to VPi: 50
--->NEW VPI: 125

 

found the 4.3liter v8 - 1975-1977 110hp-115hp, '79-'82 267cid = 120hp
I have hair standing up on my arms...

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From all accounts, that engine sucks.

 

Iirc, the valves are shrouded and tiny and all the performance enhancements in the world don't fix it.  Just doesn't breathe well due to the bore size determining the valve size.

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3 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Make: Opel
Model: GT
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 75
Car Weight: 1865
Original HP: 80
New HP: 110
Points Added to VPi: 50
--->NEW VPI: 125

 

found the 4.3liter v8 - 1975-1977 110hp-115hp, '79-'82 267cid = 120hp
I have hair standing up on my arms...

No one is worried about the Opel, it is not like you will ever finish it. Add all that heavy steel weight to it and see how that chassis handles it. Good luck.

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In the WRL rules they use hp or a modifier for TQ. I guess they are scared the diesel rabits might take over.

 

WRL rule:

For the purposes of determining class, POWER shall be defined as the greater of peak dyno horsepower OR .89 x peak dyno torque as collected using the process described in D.1

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15 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Make: Opel
Model: GT
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 75
Car Weight: 1865
Original HP: 80
New HP: 110
Points Added to VPi: 50
--->NEW VPI: 125

 

found the 4.3liter v8 - 1975-1977 110hp-115hp, '79-'82 267cid = 120hp
I have hair standing up on my arms...

Please Base your build off of a 4.3 V-8!

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oh. its a 3.8liter v6. even better. I bet they take turbos really well too with 8.6:1 compression.  is 170 ft. pounds of tq a lot Rob?
 

1981–1982 110 hp (82 kW) at 4,200 rpm 170 lb⋅ft (230 N⋅m) at 2,000 rpm
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7 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Reading this thread is like watching the titanic (champcar) slowly impact a glacier (power to weight based rules)

I wonder who got that VPI so low..

Not advocating for pwr to weight based rules....but those two things are sorta important in racing. 

Edited by JDChristianson
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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

oh. its a 3.8liter v6. even better. I bet they take turbos really well too with 8.6:1 compression.  is 170 ft. pounds of tq a lot Rob?
 

1981–1982 110 hp (82 kW) at 4,200 rpm 170 lb⋅ft (230 N⋅m) at 2,000 rpm

No.

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7 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

From all accounts, that engine sucks.

 

Iirc, the valves are shrouded and tiny and all the performance enhancements in the world don't fix it.  Just doesn't breathe well due to the bore size determining the valve size.

Having had one in a '75 Monza, the 283 that I swapped in had much more power - and fuel economy! They were rated low because they didn't make any power.

 

Comb those hairs back down, Bill. ;)

 

 

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11 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Isn't that the +50pts for the swap? 

 

For the NC miata 2.5 swap you swap in 1hp less, but with some fiddling you gain maybe +30whp and some extra torqueses. You could argue that is worth 50pts? (Same as a camshaft or headers/intake).

 

I am sure they are loop hole swaps, like a 350 TPI into a 150pts datsun and then a huge cam and you have a 300hp rust bucket missile. 

Put a huge cam in a 350 TPI and you get an engine that's a dog below 3000 rpm and runs out of breath by 4400 rpm...

 

It takes a fair bit of work to get the 245 hp TPI up to the 300 hp mark; BTDT. Made big block torque though.

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