Stock Aero Package points?

[mgoblue06]

Would a stock option aero package (s10 Xtreme) count as points for the air dam and side skirts? Our would it be 10 for air dam and 10 for side skirts?

[Chris Huggins]

Stock parts are not points for aero, assuming you are using them on the car they came off of and that you are claiming that car.

 

So if you have a S10 extreme and want to race it, your vpi is 200 points and you don't need to pay extra for the "xtreme" body kit on top of that.

 

Edit:

All 99-04 s10 are 200 points on the vpi list and I wouldn't consider it a "special model" based on the massive number sold, but I suppose thats up for interpretation

Edited December 28, 2020 by Chris Huggins

[wvumtnbkr]

Great question...

 

If you use the m motorsport front end on a BMW, it has been points in the past.  However, the gbu corvette has a rear spoiler that is apparently NOT points because it was offered on a special model and therefore okay.

 

@Ray Franck

 

I'm not sure where this stands today.  Ray, you got any input?  Can you correct me if I am wrong on this?

 

Thanks!

[mindspin311]

4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Great question...

 

If you use the m motorsport front end on a BMW, it has been points in the past.  However, the gbu corvette has a rear spoiler that is apparently NOT points because it was offered on a special model and therefore okay.

 

@Ray Franck

 

I'm not sure where this stands today.  Ray, you got any input?  Can you correct me if I am wrong on this?

 

Thanks!

Tagging tech or whoever shouldn't be done. This question needs to be sent to the tech desk. This thread will be 10 pages by Friday with no progress made, other than a lot of people mad with each other.

[enginerd]

22 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Tagging tech or whoever shouldn't be done. This question needs to be sent to the tech desk. This thread will be 10 pages by Friday with no progress made, other than a lot of people mad with each other.

Disagree. Too many decisions were made by tech on the tech desk without critique from members. The tech desk circumvented the normal petition process and has been creating new rules rather than just explaining/clarifying the existing rules. Some of the tech desk rulings have been downright stupid and had tech read a few pages of angry comments they made not have made those decisions.

Edited December 28, 2020 by enginerd

[mgoblue06]

5 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

Stock parts are not points for aero, assuming you are using them on the car they came off of and that you are claiming that car.

 

So if you have a S10 extreme and want to race it, your vpi is 200 points and you don't need to pay extra for the "xtreme" body kit on top of that.

 

Edit:

All 99-04 s10 are 200 points on the vpi list and I wouldn't consider it a "special model" based on the massive number sold, but I suppose thats up for interpretation

 

Thanks. This truck has so many parts from so many years its hard to declare what year it is when its said and done . Declare it a 95 (150 VPI compared to 200) and pay for the points for Aero would be the most advantageous. Its weird to me that they have the 95 Gen 2 body style 50 points less than the rest of the Gen 2 years, and the same VPI as Gen 1. Oversight? Or loophole? (yes I understand I'm racing a s10, don't worry about points, make it safe, blah blah blah)

 

Frame - 1997 (back half gone for RX7 cradle swap)

Engine/Tranny - 1995

Cab - 2000 (replaced because floor was gone off OG truck)

Bed - Don't know

Grill - 2000  (scrapped our first truck out and kept the grill to update the look

Xtreme Parts - 2000 (also off the scrapped truck)

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by mgoblue06

[Chris Huggins]

2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

 

Thanks. This truck has so many parts from so many years its hard to declare what year it is when its said and done . Declare it a 95 (150 VPI compared to 200) and pay for the points for Aero would be the most advantageous. Its weird to me that they have the 95 Gen 2 body style 50 points less than the rest of the Gen 2 years, and the same VPI as Gen 1. Oversight? Or loophole? (yes I understand I'm racing a s10, don't worry about points, make it safe, blah blah blah)

 

Frame - 1997 (back half gone for RX7 cradle swap)

Engine/Tranny - 1995

Cab - 2000 (replaced because floor was gone off OG truck)

Bed - Don't know

Grill - 2000  (scrapped our first truck out and kept the grill to update the look

Xtreme Parts - 2000 (also off the scrapped truck)

 

 

This is my opinion, which isn't official for a few more days FYI.

 

Definitely can't do that, since the xtreme was only offered 99-04.  You can't create something that was never offered from the factory.  So you would need to claim a 99-04 @ 200 vpi to potentially get the xtreme body cladding without paying aero points.

 

I'm not sure about the 94/95 "2nd gen" trucks getting a lower value.  

Since the 4.3 was upgraded from TBI to normal fuel injection in 96, i'd gander that is the justification.

 

Based on that, I think you have a base to claim a 95 and get the lower value if you are using a 95 engine/trans, as long as you have swapped on all the relevant 1995 parts.  

[mgoblue06]

42 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

This is my opinion, which isn't official for a few more days FYI.

 

Definitely can't do that, since the xtreme was only offered 99-04.  You can't create something that was never offered from the factory.  So you would need to claim a 99-04 @ 200 vpi to potentially get the xtreme body cladding without paying aero points.

 

I'm not sure about the 94/95 "2nd gen" trucks getting a lower value.  

Since the 4.3 was upgraded from TBI to normal fuel injection in 96, i'd gander that is the justification.

 

Based on that, I think you have a base to claim a 95 and get the lower value if you are using a 95 engine/trans, as long as you have swapped on all the relevant 1995 parts.  

 

94-02 the Engine Vin Code W engine (which we have) was available. HP designations change from factory cam/head changes. All used SCPI.

 

We will claim 150 for points based on 95 engine, and take points for Xtreme aero package, or any aero device.

 

Will we run into complaining about the headlight/grill change to newer and running 95 for points? or do we need to search for a matching 95 grill?

 

Thanks! 

Edited December 29, 2020 by mgoblue06

[Snorman]

4 hours ago, enginerd said:

Disagree. Too many decisions were made by tech on the tech desk without critique from members. The tech desk circumvented the normal petition process and has been creating new rules rather than just explaining/clarifying the existing rules. Some of the tech desk rulings have been downright stupid and had tech read a few pages of angry comments they made not have made those decisions.

 

[enginerd]

15 minutes ago, Snorman said:

 

I saw that video today... wowwww

[mcoppola]

Care to share with the rest of us what this is all about?

[Chris Huggins]

1 hour ago, mgoblue06 said:

 

94-02 the Engine Vin Code W engine (which we have) was available. HP designations change from factory cam/head changes. All used SCPI.

 

We will claim 150 for points based on 95 engine, and take points for Xtreme aero package, or any aero device.

 

Will we run into complaining about the headlight/grill change to newer and running 95 for points? or do we need to search for a matching 95 grill?

 

Thanks! 

 

If you are using the TBI engine I'd guess you are good to go with your outlined plan above.

 

I doubt that you will get any pushback about using a 2000 grille while claiming a 1995 truck.  Since it has dubious performance value and I doubt anyone who looks at it would even know the difference..   

 

Its not technically correct however so if you want to really meet the intent of the rules you should strive to make every part of your truck a 1995 or 1995 equivalent part.  If the 2000 bed is functionally or actually identical to the 1995, the rules say thats OK.  However, if the 2000 truck got a bigger gas tank (or some other part that does affect performance), you gotta put the 1995 part in to claim 1995.    Another example is the above mentioned cam/head.  If 2000 got a different cam (even with the "vin code W engine"), you need to put the 1995 cam in to claim the 1995 point value.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[mgoblue06]

39 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

If you are using the TBI engine I'd guess you are good to go with your outlined plan above.

 

I doubt that you will get any pushback about using a 2000 grille while claiming a 1995 truck.  Since it has dubious performance value and I doubt anyone who looks at it would even know the difference..   

 

Its not technically correct however so if you want to really meet the intent of the rules you should strive to make every part of your truck a 1995 or 1995 equivalent part.  If the 2000 bed is functionally or actually identical to the 1995, the rules say thats OK.  However, if the 2000 truck got a bigger gas tank (or some other part that does affect performance), you gotta put the 1995 part in to claim 1995.    Another example is the above mentioned cam/head.  If 2000 got a different cam (even with the "vin code W engine"), you need to put the 1995 cam in to claim the 1995 point value.

 

Hope that makes sense.

It makes sense!

 

The bed is the same and tank capacity (we are using a cell) is the same. 
 

We planned on a cam swap anyway, so will just claim cam points upfront if it doesn’t match. I’ll check. 
 

@Chris Huggins thanks for your help my first three months here. Glad to hear you are on the BOD in the future! I’ll shoot you a PM on how some other points work with aero, materials, etc.

[Ray Franck]

22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Great question...

 

If you use the m motorsport front end on a BMW, it has been points in the past.  However, the gbu corvette has a rear spoiler that is apparently NOT points because it was offered on a special model and therefore okay.

 

@Ray Franck

 

I'm not sure where this stands today.  Ray, you got any input?  Can you correct me if I am wrong on this?

 

Thanks!

  The GBU spoiler was only available on 6,500 pace cars in 1978. In 1979 that same spioler was offered on any Corvette produced. The GBU Corvette  has been clamed as a 1979 from their last tech at Rd America to relieve any confusion,  so I am told.

[LuckyKid]

Isn't the Xtreme a special model that would need its own VPI?   

Altima S vs. SE-R seems to have less different than S-10 vs. S-10 Xtreme.

Can I build a 100pt Mazda 323 GTX?  A 500pt WRX STi ?  I wouldn't think so.

Edited December 29, 2020 by LuckyKid

[mgoblue06]

17 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Isn't the Xtreme a special model that would need its own VPI?   

Altima S vs. SE-R seems to have less different than S-10 vs. S-10 Xtreme.

Can I build a 100pt Mazda 323 GTX?  A 500pt WRX STi ?  I wouldn't think so.

The only difference between xtreme and base was 2 inch lowering springs, bigger sway bar, quicker steering box, and airdam, side skirts. Not familiar with what models you are comparing. 

[mender]

13 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

However, if the 2000 truck got a bigger gas tank (or some other part that does affect performance), you gotta put the 1995 part in to claim 1995.    Another example is the above mentioned cam/head.  If 2000 got a different cam (even with the "vin code W engine"), you need to put the 1995 cam in to claim the 1995 point value.

 

Hope that makes sense.

In 1996 the 4.3 heads were upgraded to the #140 heads, a proper Vortec that is essentially the same as the SBC Vortec head. There were a couple of different cams available in the early to mid-90s that worked better than the base cam. 

[LuckyKid]

31 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

The only difference between xtreme and base was 2 inch lowering springs, bigger sway bar, quicker steering box, and airdam, side skirts. Not familiar with what models you are comparing. 

For the Xtreme:  larger front sway,rear sway,poly bumpstops,frame conectors,hop shock for reducing wheel hop (not nessisarily on a zq8 some others had it also)
2 1/2 lock to lock steering box,1.5" lower suspention with springs,and rear leafs,bilstein shocks,235-55-16 goodyear tires,16" extreme wheels, extreme body cladding.

That ZQ8 suspension didn’t just lower the car 1.5 inches over the standard truck; it was a genuine high performance suspension kit, with thicker sway bars, front and rear, Bilstein shocks and additional frame bracing. It also included a quicker 12:1 steering box. The Chevrolet S-10 Xtreme also got a limited-slip differential, making it quite agile in the corners, especially considering its compact size.

 I think the SE-R has A front sway bar, flash, exhaust, springs, and I think gear ratios are different.    That was worth 15pts to Tech/TAC/BoD as far as I know.

[MoparBoyy]

3 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

 I think the SE-R has A front sway bar, flash, exhaust, springs, and I think gear ratios are different.    That was worth 15pts to Tech/TAC/BoD as far as I know.

 

SE-R also has a 6 speed not available in another model, bigger brakes (which mattered when we had a 2x rule) and a little bump in power.

[TiredBirds]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:13 AM, mgoblue06 said:

Would a stock option aero package (s10 Xtreme) count as points for the air dam and side skirts? Our would it be 10 for air dam and 10 for side skirts?

I think you'd be ok unless you show up in something like this...That S10 stuff is more for show, doubt it is extremely functional.

 

[Timothy G. Elliott]

48 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

I think you'd be ok unless you show up in something like this...That S10 stuff is more for show, doubt it is extremely functional.

 

My favorite car of all! I wonder how the GTI would do with a nose cone? How many points would that be????!!

Edited January 8, 2021 by Timothy G. Elliott

[TiredBirds]

2 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

My favorite car of all! I wonder how the GTI would do with a nose cone? How many points would that be????!!

Cost of materials I'd guess....

[wvumtnbkr]

1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

I think you'd be ok unless you show up in something like this...That S10 stuff is more for show, doubt it is extremely functional.

 

Just to clarify something here...

 

Functionality has nothing to do with the points value in champcar.

 

However, just clarify with tech that the s10 extreme can use the same value as the standard s10 and all should be good.

 

Or, get a new value from tech if the extreme is considered a special model.

[mgoblue06]

The extreme stuff is going in the trash and going to take points for parts off of it that we kept (larger sway bar, lowering springs- 30 points) and use the 1995 motor and claim 1995 VPI. 

 

Thanks for all your help!