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Aero points should be pro-rated to weight


mender
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2 hours ago, mender said:

No scales or data needed, just use the swap calculator "weights" and calculate the aero points based on that.

 

If Champcar thinks it's good enough for power to weight, it's certainly good enough for aero to weight.

I'm totally on board with this, so long as you have the same weighting in the opposite direction based on power.  It's only fair because high horsepower cars can run multiple elements and more extreme angles because they have the power to overcome the drag. 

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4 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I'm totally on board with this, so long as you have the same weighting in the opposite direction based on power.  It's only fair because high horsepower cars can run multiple elements and more extreme angles because they have the power to overcome the drag. 

Great to see you on here, your build info got me motivated to do the Aero mods on the Rabbit, hope to be closer to you all in April! Gotta have a dream. Lol I really have to compliment you  on stringing the car during practice, that had to take forever to do. But I'm sure you gained useful information  off of doing that!

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1 minute ago, LuckyKid said:

I'm totally on board with this, so long as you have the same weighting in the opposite direction based on power.  It's only fair because high horsepower cars can run multiple elements and more extreme angles because they have the power to overcome the drag. 

You've been really good about sharing your aero development and that is much appreciated but

do you have any data showing that your straight top speed is less with all the aero you can pile on?

 

Given we're not in the F1 realm of 1000s of lbs of downforce, I don't think the induced drag is significant enough to warrant the concession that you're asking for but I'm open to the idea if it has validity.

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The rules are already way to complicated.  
 

Plus the numbers being “calculated” are missing a ton of variables.  Three I can think of right away. 
1. obviously every track is different. Aero is worth a different percentage of lap time at each track just like hp is. 
2. Having xx% more speed because of aero assumes that each driver can take advantage of that. In reality they cannot. Every driver can take advantage of more hp.  
3. Aero may make a bigger improvement in lap time when your racing alone.  Hp makes passing way easier than aero.  

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5 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The rules are already way to complicated.  
 

Plus the numbers being “calculated” are missing a ton of variables.  Three I can think of right away. 
1. obviously every track is different. Aero is worth a different percentage of lap time at each track just like hp is. 
2. Having xx% more speed because of aero assumes that each driver can take advantage of that. In reality they cannot. Every driver can take advantage of more hp.  
3. Aero may make a bigger improvement in lap time when your racing alone.  Hp makes passing way easier than aero.  

I have raced many drivers that couldn't handle the horse power either. Knowing where the tracktion limits of your tires is also important, look at who can drive in the rain and you'll find the ones that can handle power. And passing on the outside of the carousel at RA is much easier with more downforce.

Edited by Timothy G. Elliott
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The rules are already way to complicated.  
 

Plus the numbers being “calculated” are missing a ton of variables.  Three I can think of right away. 
1. obviously every track is different. Aero is worth a different percentage of lap time at each track just like hp is. 
2. Having xx% more speed because of aero assumes that each driver can take advantage of that. In reality they cannot. Every driver can take advantage of more hp.  
3. Aero may make a bigger improvement in lap time when your racing alone.  Hp makes passing way easier than aero.  

1. Already mentioned.

2. We're talking about the cars but a good aero car is easier to drive. The extra stability advantage hasn't been "calculated" but is very real, most teams show a sizable gain in speed just because of that, usually by bringing the weakest driver more in line with the others. Opposite effect of what you're implying.

3. I can very easily argue that having another line to use makes passing much easier than trying to drive through someone with hp but that's up to the drivers. 

 

Any others?

Edited by mender
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Just wait til someone puts full aero on something with horsepower. Wigs will flip.

 

 

*And when that happens, the low powered aero cars will no longer be lapping as fast as cars with power at big tracks. It's just how it works. A Miata running with 240-260hp cars at RA is unnatural and won't happen if they add similar aero.

Edited by Bandit
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5 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Just wait til someone puts full aero on something with horsepower. Wigs will flip.

 

 

*And when that happens, the low powered aero cars will no longer be lapping as fast as cars with power at big tracks. It's just how it works. A Miata running with 240-260hp cars at RA is unnatural and won't happen if they add similar wings.

Either they don't have the points to work with, or are unaware of the gains that they could make, and I agree with you it would blow the members minds!

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55 minutes ago, mender said:

You've been really good about sharing your aero development and that is much appreciated but

do you have any data showing that your straight top speed is less with all the aero you can pile on?

 

Given we're not in the F1 realm of 1000s of lbs of downforce, I don't think the induced drag is significant enough to warrant the concession that you're asking for but I'm open to the idea if it has validity.

I calculated a lot early on but I can assure you that maximum downforce is not the fastest setup with 145 RWHP.  

Using nine lives published data, there is a 6hp difference at 100mph and an 11hp difference at 120mph between their wing at 5 degrees vs. their double element max position.   Using actual performance (Wind tunnel data) is likely double that.  

It gets real bad for time when your car hits a wall and has no HP left to accelerate mid-straight.  

You can punch all the data into optimum lap to get reasonable estimates and you can see how it gets much worse as power drops.    At the end of a straight, I only have about 30hp left for acceleration.    A larger, but higher HP car, like an Altima has 110whp left to accelerate after overcoming drag and rolling resistance. 

We spend a lot of time testing and tuning and we have a lot more wing we could use at Road America, but its slower.


Aero cars are easier to drive?  Maybe if you just have something simple, but it gets complex quick.   We only let the most experienced drivers race our car.  Our mechanic is SCCA licensed and has a couple decades behind the wheel.  We were out of the race on Sunday at RA and let him drive.  He had just got done with a season of racing a Miata locally but despite being a pretty good driver he ended up looping it twice in his first lap.   At VIR when my co-driver cracked his head on the wing we had another experienced road racer hop in and put it in the wall on his first green lap.     How the car works in yaw is different and its sensitive to the ground clearance and rumbles when you add aero.  The braking dynamics also change.  Driving our car is way more complex than a "regular" miata. 

Edited by LuckyKid
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15 minutes ago, mender said:

1. Already mentioned.

2. We're talking about the cars but a good aero car is easier to drive. The extra stability advantage hasn't been "calculated" but is very real, most teams show a sizable gain in speed just because of that, usually by bringing the weakest driver more in line with the others. Opposite effect of what you're implying.

3. I can very easily argue that having another line to use makes passing much easier than trying to drive through someone with hp but that's up to the drivers. 

 

Any others?

Getting an amateur driver to get the full lateral grip capability out of a car with aero is a lot more inconsistent than getting them to push the pedal. 
 

Yes, getting a car with decent aero to grip in different spots on the track is easier, but when you get onto the straight and into the braking zone where a large majority of passes happen (with similar speed cars anyway) the hp will give that car an advantage. 
 

Im not arguing the gains of aero. But I don’t think your calculations are taking into account all of the variables equally. We won’t agree on that I’m sure.   
 

The other issue is implementing something. The variables and data are way more complex than power to weight.  There would need to be very robust research (actual data driven, not just touchy feely) compiled to make something like this worth while.  
 

Given the “issues” Champcar has had recently, I don’t think the series is in a position to even think about something like this until some other things get sorted out.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, LuckyKid said:

I calculated a lot early on but I can assure you that maximum downforce is not the fastest setup with 145 RWHP.  

Using nine lives published data, there is a 6hp difference at 100mph and an 11hp difference at 120mph between their wing at 5 degrees vs. their double element max position.   Using actual performance (Wind tunnel data) is likely double that.  

It gets real bad for time when you car hits a wall and has no HP left to accelerate mid-straight.  

You can punch all the data into optimum lap to get reasonable estimates and you can see how it gets much worse as power drops.    At the end of a straight, I only have about 30hp left for acceleration.    A larger, but higher HP car, like an Altima has 110whp left to accelerate after overcoming drag and rolling resistance. 

We spend a lot of time testing and tuning and we have a lot more wing we could use at Road America, but its slower.

We're at about the same whp and at 100 mph we were accelerating at 0.05 g up the hill but I don't see the advantage of sacrificing the rest of the track for 4-5 seconds of a little more speed at the end of the long straight.

 

I see that in a lot of videos and on track where if the momentum car can hang on to the pass long enough to stay ahead on the long straight, the hp car never sees him again.

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9 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Either they don't have the points to work with, or are unaware of the gains that they could make, and I agree with you it would blow the members minds!

The Altima is stuck I believe due to points. Others may be able to take 30 points of something else off to gain 10+ seconds a lap.

 

I hate the look of wings myself but that is what one will need going forward.

 

*Imagine everyone's favorite Vette if they had aero'd it up versus putting a C4 suspension in the rear. 😂

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3 minutes ago, mender said:

We're at about the same whp and at 100 mph we were accelerating at 0.05 g up the hill but I don't see the advantage of sacrificing the rest of the track for 4-5 seconds of a little more speed at the end of the long straight.

 

I see that in a lot of videos and on track where if the momentum car can hang on to the pass long enough to stay ahead on the long straight, the hp car never sees him again.

Do you run aero?   You seem to be pretty confident that the drag doesn't matter, so slap on a big ass multi-element wing and have at it.  I spend hundreds of hours on aero and spend tens of thousands of dollars on testing, but what do I know.   

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1 minute ago, petawawarace said:

Getting an amateur driver to get the full lateral grip capability out of a car with aero is a lot more inconsistent than getting them to push the pedal. 
 

Yes, getting a car with decent aero to grip in different spots on the track is easier, but when you get onto the straight and into the braking zone where a large majority of passes happen (with similar speed cars anyway) the hp will give that car an advantage. 
 

Im not arguing the gains of aero. But I don’t think your calculations are taking into account all of the variables equally. We won’t agree on that I’m sure.   
 

The other issue is implementing something. The variables and data are way more complex than power to weight.  There would need to be very robust research (actual data driven, not just touchy feely) compiled to make something like this worth while.  
 

Given the “issues” Champcar has had recently, I don’t think the series is in a position to even think about something like this until some other things get sorted out.  

Getting an amateur driver to feel secure enough in the car to go fast is more consistent than having him scared of going fast. Getting to the limit is a fine-tuning thing and usually involves portions of a second; getting close is not fine tuning and usually involves seconds. 

 

The physics is pretty well sorted out: F = ma. Same force with less mass = more acceleration, both lateral and longitundinal. Lots of data out there, I even have some from that race that I used to estimate how much downforce my aero is making.

 

One can say that any aspect of racing is too complicated to write exact rules about but that doesn't mean that rules shouldn't be written.

 

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6 minutes ago, mender said:

 

 

One can say that any aspect of racing is too complicated to write exact rules about but that doesn't mean that rules shouldn't be written.

 

I really don’t want to turn this into a bash fest of the series, but we’ve gotta be honest with ourselves.  The flywheel rule and Rad rule should have been pretty straightforward. I’m sure most of us don’t know the whole story, and I am hopefully that things get turned around.  
 

There are many other (simpler) things that should be sorted out well before anybody looks at weight specific aero rules IMO.  Tires being the biggest one.  

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13 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Do you run aero?   You seem to be pretty confident that the drag doesn't matter, so slap on a big ass multi-element wing and have at it.  I spend hundreds of hours on aero and spend tens of thousands of dollars on testing, but what do I know.   

Quote

331 (13).JPG

 

Still have lots of development to go but I'm having fun learning. And as I said, I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise and experience. 

 

Please read what I say, especially about the part where I said that I don't see the advantage of sacrificing the rest of the track for 4-5 seconds of a little more speed at the end of the long straight. So far, that's where I'm at, and that could change.

 

I certainly didn't say that drag doesn't matter.

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1 minute ago, petawawarace said:

There are many other (simpler) things that should be sorted out well before anybody looks at weight specific aero rules IMO.  Tires Fuel being the biggest one.  

FIFY. :)

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

How the car works in yaw is different and its sensitive to the ground clearance and rumbles when you add aero.  The braking dynamics also change.  Driving our car is way more complex than a "regular" miata. 

Driving the Civic with the aero that it has is much easier and less complex than driving a Fiero with none. Fieros don't work in yaw. :) Sounds like your Miata would be a fun ride, I like a challenge.

 

As you mentioned, to get everything out of the car requires a good driver. As a racing instructor I see people struggle with a quirky car that would be much faster in one that worked well. It takes a better driver to compensate for a single area of car deficiency than one with good general handling.  A good driver will go fast in just about anything. Just my personal experience.

 

12 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Nothing wrong with the fuel rules.  And that coming from someone with a 13Gal tank. 

Nothing wrong with the tire rules, coming from a Civic owner.

Edited by mender
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29 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Do you run aero?   You seem to be pretty confident that the drag doesn't matter, so slap on a big ass multi-element wing and have at it.  I spend hundreds of hours on aero and spend tens of thousands of dollars on testing, but what do I know.   

Drag was my concern, but the air dam and splitter with taping up the grille alone should actually lower it, and adding the rear side windows with the rear hatch and plexiglass should help as well, I've added some weight but am confident that the Aero advantage will out weigh the weight issue here's a before as ran at RA and a now pic.

IMG_20201227_104000575_HDR.jpg

image.thumb.png.453d54381b2cf63f2a1808d519c147d9.png

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

I calculated a lot early on but I can assure you that maximum downforce is not the fastest setup with 145 RWHP.  


We spend a lot of time testing and tuning and we have a lot more wing we could use at Road America, but its slower.

I hope to get to that point sooner than later. 

 

But in the meantime, is this a healthy direction for Champcar without at least considering it another rabbit hole that will need addressing?

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5 minutes ago, mender said:

I hope to get to that point sooner than later. 

 

But in the meantime, is this a healthy direction for Champcar without at least considering it another rabbit hole that will need addressing?

Watch it your talking to a Rabbit driver, any hole I can exploit I will!

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5 minutes ago, mender said:

But in the meantime, is this a healthy direction for Champcar without at least considering it another rabbit hole that will need addressing?

The rabbit hole will likely remain open until someone shows up with something like this. No, it doesn't have the AL 4 cylinder in it.

spacer.png

 

*Monza's are incredibly hard to find in a non drag car state.

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I can assure you that at least someone at CCES is working on closing loopholes and exploits for aero outside of the BCCR.  There is a lot that can be done, but most of the more exotic stuff we've tried has gotten shot down some before we tried it, other times after.  That said, tunnels are still allowed to my knowledge. 

For the Rabbit drag reduction would likely help the most vs DF.  You are even worse off than a Miata with PWR to drag.

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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I can assure you that at least someone at CCES is working on closing loopholes and exploits for aero outside of the BCCR.  There is a lot that can be done, but most of the more exotic stuff we've tried has gotten shot down some before we tried it, other times after.  That said, tunnels are still allowed to my knowledge. 

For the Rabbit drag reduction would likely help the most vs DF.  You are even worse off than a Miata with PWR to drag.

Of that I'm very aware! Hope my mods didn't add too much drag, I'm hoping it's actually lower now with some added down force. No wind tunnel to test in around here, and couldn't afford it right now anyway. Lol 

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