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Aero points should be pro-rated to weight


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On 1/1/2021 at 9:46 AM, wvumtnbkr said:

I meant in relation to weight and size.

 

The nc miata is not raced much and IS very close to a solstice.  Overweight and overbig.

 

Agree, they should lower the NC miata to 375 pts.

 

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14 minutes ago, Burningham said:

Agree, they should lower the NC miata to 375 pts.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Burningham said:

Nice try, but that ain't happenin'

Since they are somewhat equivalent perhaps the Solstice/Sky should be dropped down to 400 to match the NC.

 

No interest from me but that may add a little variety to the series.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/2/2021 at 5:06 PM, Bandit said:

Big cars already have zero chance on tracks like Gingerman. Why should they be penalized in their natural habitat? ie: big fast tracks


The fastest Champcar I have seen run at Gingerman is a C4 Corvette. 

How many times were you out there last year? I think I did (7) test days last year. Had you been there for at least 3 or 4 you would have seen this as well. 

Edited by Andrew D Johnson
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21 minutes ago, Bandit said:

No interest from me but that may add a little variety to the series.

The series doesn't want variety. IMO, that's very clear. 

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33 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


The fastest Champcar I have seen run at Gingerman is a C4 Corvette. 

How many times were you out there last year? I think I did (7) test days last year. Had you been there for at least 3 or 4 you would have seen this as well. 

I have little interest in Gingerman as it is the wrong side of the lake, however; https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5847322 lap times matter.

 

Don't see the Vette you speak of. Is it EC? There are two Camaro's in the top 20 so they are obviously a threat....

 

btw-The laptime of the WTF Miata is the same as a 2012 Camaro ZL1 (with 580hp and good suspension) piloted by a very accomplished driver and Camaro engineer named Mark Steilow. Edit-My bad. The ZL1 was a high 1:42, a second faster. Driven by an Indy Lights pilot the same car ran a 1:44 and change.

 

Edited by Bandit
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16 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm guessing it wasn't a race...  just practice.  Wouldn't show up on speedhive.

Yes, I understand that.

 

Would like to see evidence of a C4 lapping with a ZL1.... As a Miata in Champ trim can. Otherwise it's just typical passive aggressive BS.

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20 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Yes, I understand that.

 

Would like to see evidence of a C4 lapping with a ZL1.... As a Miata in Champ trim can. Otherwise it's just typical passive aggressive BS.

OK so passive BS aside. I believe what Andrew was in reference to was the same practice test day we were at and yes the Vet was really quick and out ran the Camaro which was at the same test day. They had lots of fun that day and we all watched as they made laps. The Vet was covered in string and testing several aero options thru the day.

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47 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm guessing it wasn't a race...  just practice.  Wouldn't show up on speedhive.


They blew a HG on Friday before the race, but had been to a bunch of the spring days days. 

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42 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Would like to see evidence of a C4 lapping with a ZL1.... As a Miata in Champ trim can. Otherwise it's just typical passive aggressive BS.

 
I bet you would, maybe you should get out to the track and you could see it yourself. 

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20 minutes ago, 55mini said:

OK so passive BS aside. I believe what Andrew was in reference to was the same practice test day we were at and yes the Vet was really quick and out ran the Camaro which was at the same test day. They had lots of fun that day and we all watched as they made laps. The Vet was covered in string and testing several aero options thru the day.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see a C4 or Camaro do well on a track like Gingerman. Thing is, in 10 years it hasn't happened.

 

Hell, C4's haven't done well anywhere so a fast one would be a sight for sore eyes. Free parts may be helping them as taking weight out, and they have a lot to take out, doesn't work well with the stock fiberglass leafs.

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8 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see a C4 or Camaro do well on a track like Gingerman. Thing is, in 10 years it hasn't happened.

 

Hell, C4's haven't done well anywhere so a fast one would be a sight for sore eyes. Free parts may be helping them as taking weight out, and they have a lot to take out, doesn't work well with the stock fiberglass leafs.


They did pretty darn well at Barber. 

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5975668

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15 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


They did pretty darn well at Barber. 

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5975668

Yes, they did. They are making C4's great again.

 

At a 15mph higher average speed than Gingerman. ie:Barber is a faster track. Average speeds there are much closer to Road America than Gingerman.

 

Great to see though. Until it wins then gets VPI'd.

Edited by Bandit
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2 hours ago, Bandit said:

 

Since they are somewhat equivalent perhaps the Solstice/Sky should be dropped down to 400 to match the NC.

 

No interest from me but that may add a little variety to the series.

 

I would agree even if I have an NC. Given that the NC is also very easy to race since there is lots of motorsports going on with the NC and tons of aftermarket parts (Mazda motorsports/Penske bolt on for 40pts anyone?).

 

Both have 13 gallons as well. 

 

Maybe just lower both of them to 375 points. 

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2 hours ago, Snorman said:

The series doesn't want variety. IMO, that's very clear. 

 

I think they want? Otherwise why even have the VPI stuff? Just make everything PWR like WRL 

(It's all the same cars GTO: Corvettes/Expensive stuff, GP1: BMW/Porsche, GP2: BMW, GP3: NC Miata, GP4: NA/NB Miata)

 

 

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32 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

I think they want? Otherwise why even have the VPI stuff? Just make everything PWR like WRL 

(It's all the same cars GTO: Corvettes/Expensive stuff, GP1: BMW/Porsche, GP2: BMW, GP3: NC Miata, GP4: NA/NB Miata)

 


Except for the year the clapped-out civic kept winning overall from GP2. lol

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16 hours ago, Bandit said:

Yes, they did. They are making C4's great again.

 

At a 15mph higher average speed than Gingerman. ie:Barber is a faster track. Average speeds there are much closer to Road America than Gingerman.

 

Great to see though. Until it wins then gets VPI'd.

Our times vs the rest of field were better at Gingerman FWIW. 

 

It’s not just torque that makes the car fast. The car corners and brakes very well. 

 

Not sure what you mean about it getting “VPI’d”. We are not a new team and we honestly thought it would be easier to make the car “fast” at endurance racing than what it has been. Coming from and e30 team im still not sure it has been worth all the trouble, 100’s of hours and money yet. There are so many cars that have not used up all the easy stuff that still Finish decent. Some of those teams are the people crying when another car finishes well.  We were one of those teams in our e30 who had not done all the easy stuff. Dented old style fuel tank, atrocious aero, missing front factory air damn and and old wore out rear subframe with stock bushings and still managed some good finishes. The vette would not finish crap without going thru the whole dang car from top to bottom. We still came

home from barber with a whole slew of issues that we would not have had with the e30. 

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1 hour ago, Indysupra said:

Our times vs the rest of field were better at Gingerman FWIW. 

 

It’s not just torque that makes the car fast. The car corners and brakes very well. 

 

Not sure what you mean about it getting “VPI’d”. We are not a new team and we honestly thought it would be easier to make the car “fast” at endurance racing than what it has been. Coming from and e30 team im still not sure it has been worth all the trouble, 100’s of hours and money yet. There are so many cars that have not used up all the easy stuff that still Finish decent. Some of those teams are the people crying when another car finishes well.  We were one of those teams in our e30 who had not done all the easy stuff. Dented old style fuel tank, atrocious aero, missing front factory air damn and and old wore out rear subframe with stock bushings and still managed some good finishes. The vette would not finish crap without going thru the whole dang car from top to bottom. We still came

home from barber with a whole slew of issues that we would not have had with the e30. 


All that hard work shows, that car is beautiful. It was great seeing you guys run so well at Barber. I felt terrible at Gingerman when you had to pull out. 

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2 hours ago, Indysupra said:

It’s not just torque that makes the car fast. The car corners and brakes very well. 

 Back in the showroom stock days the Vette's ended up in their own series as they were so dominant so it always seemed like they should do well in this series. Obviously this isn't showroom stock, but that seemed to show the car as capable. Past efforts, and there have been a number of them, seemed to really struggle with it however. I recall springs and limited geometry adjustability as issues with tuning them? 

 

It's great to see you guys bringing out the true potential of the car.

 

*VPI'd=getting a bump up in points for winning

 

 

Edited by Bandit
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14 minutes ago, Bandit said:

 Back in the showroom stock days the Vette's ended up in their own series as they were so dominant so it always seemed like they should do well in this series. Obviously this isn't showroom stock, but that seemed to show the car as capable. Past efforts, and there have been a number of them, seemed to really struggle with it however. I recall springs and limited geometry adjustability as issues with tuning them? 

 

It's great to see you guys bringing out the true potential of the car.

 

*VPI'd=getting a bump up in points for winning

 

 

Gotcha. I would hope they would not do that just because we run a decent program and have been creative with the car. 

 

Yes spring rates and getting camber out of the front is a struggle when using factory parts. I found a way to get camber out of the front with little compromise that fits perfectly in the rules. I have about 17 hours just in that task alone. I would share the info and the “how to” with anyone interested. Spring rates your kinda stuck. I scored a very sought after front spring but don’t have a spare yet. Rear springs are pretty available. They changed the bars back and forth thru the years due to the corvette challenge stuff so that is good that you have some tuning options. Another thing that we have struggled with is brakes!!!! We are killing fronts still. I thought that the c5 brakes would have made it easy but good rotor choices have made that a fallacy. The c5 guys doing track days don’t make it many hpde’s On front rotors. Translate that over to the tine we all put in these cars equates into the rotors only making it a day. We tried different pads following the recommendations of a lot of professionals. We are in the process of going to bigger front brakes. 

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2 hours ago, Indysupra said:

... 100’s of hours and money yet. There are so many cars that have not used up all the easy stuff that still Finish decent. Some of those teams are the people crying when another car finishes well.  We were one of those teams in our e30 who had not done all the easy stuff. Dented old style fuel tank, atrocious aero, missing front factory air damn and and old wore out rear subframe with stock bushings and still managed some good finishes.

 

giphy.gif

 

 

The number of hours involved to go from P10 to P5 is large.

The number of hours involved to go from P5 to P1 is 10x that.

Its a logarithmic scale

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43 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

giphy.gif

 

 

The number of hours involved to go from P10 to P5 is large.

The number of hours involved to go from P5 to P1 is 10x that.

Its a logarithmic scale

Also worth mentioning is the time never goes away or gets any better. The vette got immediately unloaded off the trailer after barber onto the lift and checked from top to bottom and then torn down/parts ordered. Then we go back to the drawing board on some issues/problems/mods to make the program better. 

Edited by Indysupra
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