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1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said:

To be clear, we run Wilwood dynalite(~$140 each) calipers

To be clear these are brake calipers specifically designed for racing.  I get they are relatively inexpensive but I'm sure you could find original calipers for the same or less money.  This setup is definitely better performing and reduces race to race costs on brakes.  But just because you were able to put together a kit at a better price point doesn't change the fact you benefited from being able to upgrade your front brake system. Other teams are not always able to put together a bargain upgrade for many reasons.

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Let me ask this, the series is an endurance series.  Therefore the goal is to make it to the end of the time allotted for the race, correct?  We allow for all most any make and model to compete and as

Wait, maybe this is just a strut bar?

Sad thing is $1k wings can be had for 10 points, but now $4k brake kits are free......

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8 minutes ago, TimS said:

To be clear these are brake calipers specifically designed for racing.  I get they are relatively inexpensive but I'm sure you could find original calipers for the same or less money.  This setup is definitely better performing and reduces race to race costs on brakes.  But just because you were able to put together a kit at a better price point doesn't change the fact you benefited from being able to upgrade your front brake system. Other teams are not always able to put together a bargain upgrade for many reasons.

Did you miss the part where I said we took points to run them??? They are now Free.....and if we played the dealership games from before we could have run them for free...but felt that was a disgrace to the spirit of the series...

43 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yeah, I don't like the free stuff.  Stuff that makes the car faster should be much higher points.  That would open the door for stuff that just let's you finish a race be free.

 

Springs, shocks, brakes, aero, swaps,  etc...  could double in points.  Then let accusump and big rads and diff coolers be free or minimal points.

 

Hubs fall into a weird in between space, but for 2.5 pts, fine.

I agree, hubs should be 10 pts. each IMHO...

Edited by hotchkis23
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I'm not knocking you at all.  I agree with your spirit of the series. But it would help alot of teams if they could reduce the cost of repair time and parts. Using upgraded brakes that last longer with rotors that can be turned instead of needing replacement every race, hubs that can be raced for several seasons instead of being replaced every race, radiators that can be repaired and cost less than the the one that has to be replaced every season. We can find ways to make this series the best bargain in racing.  Its never going to be cheap to race either. If certain replacement parts are going to be allowed without a points penalty why are others penalized?  Shocks and springs make less of an improvement than an oil cooler or radiator?  

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14 hours ago, TimS said:

I'm not knocking you at all.  I agree with your spirit of the series. But it would help alot of teams if they could reduce the cost of repair time and parts. Using upgraded brakes that last longer with rotors that can be turned instead of needing replacement every race, hubs that can be raced for several seasons instead of being replaced every race, radiators that can be repaired and cost less than the the one that has to be replaced every season. We can find ways to make this series the best bargain in racing.  Its never going to be cheap to race either. If certain replacement parts are going to be allowed without a points penalty why are others penalized?  Shocks and springs make less of an improvement than an oil cooler or radiator?  

Let me ask this, the series is an endurance series.  Therefore the goal is to make it to the end of the time allotted for the race, correct?  We allow for all most any make and model to compete and assign a value that is expected to be compared to that make and models ability to compete.  Therefore, I would be one to assume that any piece of equipment that allows you an advantage to complete those laps in that time frame should be allowed at an expense of points....

 

Seriously, e30 rotors can be had for less than $30 a piece(i own one), also, I have stated we use a blank that can be turned so not sure your point. Why do cars break hubs?  Because you decided to run 10" wheels on a car that came from the factory running 7" wheels!  To me that sounds like a heck of a performance increase that should expect to have issues and pay a premium for the benefit that they gain.  Also, if you are replacing a radiator every race, that is a problem I don't know how to solve, but the rules allow you to switch for no points or 10pts depending on your solution.

 

Brakes do not need to be free.....neither do shocks, neither do bushings, neither do springs.....nor do clutches, flywheels, body kits, etc....

Edited by hotchkis23
grammar..
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53 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

I agree, hubs should be 10 pts. each IMHO...

They used to be, before a former CC racer coerced a former CC official into reducing them to 2.5.

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1 hour ago, mcoppola said:

They used to be, before a former CC racer coerced a former CC official into reducing them to 2.5.

This is something that surely can be changed easily and brought back to the spirit of the rules which were and have been in place, suspension component 10 points each.

 

And you would think since we race a Miatas we would be excited to get high tech hubs for 2.5 points but have been against it from the day it happened. Heck we have broken like three or maybe four hubs in 7 years and most all had impact from another car.

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3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yeah, I don't like the free stuff.  Stuff that makes the car faster should be much higher points.  That would open the door for stuff that just let's you finish a race be free.

 

Springs, shocks, brakes, aero, swaps,  etc...  could double in points.  Then let accusump and big rads and diff coolers be free or minimal points.

 

Hubs fall into a weird in between space, but for 2.5 pts, fine.

I've always found it odd that stuff that makes a car faster costs less points than stuff that makes it reliable.

 

I see no reason Accusumps, radiators, oil coolers, hubs etc shouldn't be free. Boost up the points for the go fast parts.

 

If hubs for your ride are too expensive in real dollars, don't put them on. It shouldn't penalize everyone else.

 

eta-Brakes-As stated earlier, aftermarket/swapped brakes are necessary on some cars while others have sufficient brakes. Making them free allows a level playing field which a lot of people "claim" to want. (Usually so a slow car can lap with a fast one, but I digress) A ban on brakes beyond 4 pots would be nice however. And no need for high dollar Alcons, AP, Stop Tech and such either.

 

Also, just to throw a bomb; Wings should be 50 points.

Edited by Bandit
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On 1/4/2021 at 11:09 AM, TimS said:


water jets, 3D printers, and appropriate 3D engineering software is the cheap way to DIY a big wing in the garage, or any other low budget racing parts. I’m sure everyone can agree these are common hand tools every backyard mechanic has available. 

 

I guess I should refrain from showing my CFD traces then…..

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11 hours ago, Bandit said:

I've always found it odd that stuff that makes a car faster costs less points than stuff that makes it reliable.

 

I see no reason Accusumps, radiators, oil coolers, hubs etc shouldn't be free. Boost up the points for the go fast parts.

 

If hubs for your ride are too expensive in real dollars, don't put them on. It shouldn't penalize everyone else.

 

eta-Brakes-As stated earlier, aftermarket/swapped brakes are necessary on some cars while others have sufficient brakes. Making them free allows a level playing field which a lot of people "claim" to want. (Usually so a slow car can lap with a fast one, but I digress) A ban on brakes beyond 4 pots would be nice however. And no need for high dollar Alcons, AP, Stop Tech and such either.

 

Also, just to throw a bomb; Wings should be 50 points.

As a person who is dropping big money on aero/wing I wish they had never allowed them in the series honestly. It gets expensive to make the aero stuff work. 

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

I guess I should refrain from showing my CFD traces then…..


I’m a fan of all high tech/pro level race equipment and technology. I’m not opposed to people using it to build better, safer, and more reliable race cars. I’m personally using any all techniques I have available or can be stolen from the internet. The thing that always entertains me is the fight to penalize a loophole in the rulebook that finally gets closed and is made available to all teams/cars and the Moaning when teams/cars can’t exploit loopholes that other teams can. For my car I want to make it more reliable and easier to service between races. Reducing operating costs would be great but saving some wrench time would be nice. 

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14 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

Brakes do not need to be free

Brakes for points sounds workable. A low point value would likely be enough to make them point cost prohibitive on cars that really don't need them. No way 2X works however as it ends up being free, very expensive, brakes for certain cars that already have good brakes.

 

Generally the high VPI cars already have good brakes so they don't need them.

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13 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Brakes for points sounds workable. A low point value would likely be enough to make them point cost prohibitive on cars that really don't need them. No way 2X works however as it ends up being free, very expensive, brakes for certain cars that already have good brakes.

 

Generally the high VPI cars already have good brakes so they don't need them.

The vpi list would need redone if there were no concessions for brakes.  

Edited by Indysupra
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2 minutes ago, Indysupra said:

The vpi list would need redone with there be no concessions for brakes.  

For some cars, yes. Putting brakes at as little as 10 points per axle wouldn't require big VPI swings for cars that actually need them and those that already have good brakes wouldn't want to spend the points. Low VPI cars wouldn't require any change.

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

For some cars, yes. Putting brakes at as little as 10 points per axle wouldn't require big VPI swings for cars that actually need them and those that already have good brakes wouldn't want to spend the points. Low VPI cars wouldn't require any change.

Agree. 

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Or, if people really like free brakes put a price limit of $100/caliper for new/remans or you run the OE brakes on the car. That limits cars with good brakes to factory parts while allowing cars with crap brakes a cost effective upgrade with parts available from any NAPA.

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