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Porsche 944 - 07K swap


carfixer24
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1 hour ago, carfixer24 said:

Has anyone successfully completed and raced one in Champcar? I recently acquired an engineless 944 and am looking at the various options.

With the points structured I swap in a 170hp 350 and be done. Probably have enough left over for aluminum heads. 

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49 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

Have you looked into the 944 engines?  I hear they fit really well.

In all seriousness, Visceral and Cone Crushers are two of the most competitive teams in the series and run 944 engines. 

944s or s2 engine would be the better swap

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I was close to doing this but they changed the rules.

 

I think it's a great swap but it doesn't work swap points vise. The swap is 50pts and the intake is 25pts. 

 

Maybe if you start with a 924s, you can't use the 350pts 944. You need to use the 450pts 944.

 

(The point of this swap is that the 07k is rated at 150hp but with after market intake you get 210hp). 
edit:
There used to be SBC kits but they are hard to find now. Otherwise that might work.

Edited by turbogrill
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8 hours ago, carfixer24 said:

Has anyone successfully completed and raced one in Champcar? I recently acquired an engineless 944 and am looking at the various options.

Any engine swap into a 944 causes you to start at 500 points.  07K swap kit is $4K, not worth it in my opinion.

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Source a good 944 block, add stroked crank, bore block, add larger pistons, source a nice S2 head, and for much less(points and cash) than the 07k swap you have a nice 944S to race. Some professional assembly needed but surely simpler than the 5cyl Audi swap. I do miss the 944 we raced back in the late 90’s one of the easiest cars to drive fast. Sadly still not cheap to race and not simple to build. 

Edited by TimS
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Honestly I have limited knowledge in 944's. I love the looks and want one, almost bought one. All my research suggests like any other make, you want to make sure the maintenance has been kept up. I don't know why a stockish 944 engine cannot compete.  I'd work on getting the car as light as possible, that helps more than picking up 10-20hp.

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What I wonder is why you can't get more power from the 8v engines?

 

I talked to a couple of "experts" and they said it was hopeless with to do it with our rules.

 

It's a 2.7L engine, why wouldn't  DIY head port/clean , cam, megasquirt and headers give you 200hp? I can get it from my 1970 datsun...

 

The base swap kit is $1400, I think it's worth it if you can get the intake for free (you can't). Not worth it without the intake.

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19 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

What I wonder is why you can't get more power from the 8v engines?

 

I talked to a couple of "experts" and they said it was hopeless with to do it with our rules.

 

It's a 2.7L engine, why wouldn't  DIY head port/clean , cam, megasquirt and headers give you 200hp? I can get it from my 1970 datsun...

 

The base swap kit is $1400, I think it's worth it if you can get the intake for free (you can't). Not worth it without the intake.

was the 2.7 165 stock or is that the 190? been a while since I looked them up. I'd think if you milled the heads and cleaned them up, added a free flow exhaust system you'd free up some power... cams always help too.  Another though is a GM V6. The SBC bolts up to the transaxle as I understand it.  

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2 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

was the 2.7 165 stock or is that the 190? been a while since I looked them up. I'd think if you milled the heads and cleaned them up, added a free flow exhaust system you'd free up some power... cams always help too.  Another though is a GM V6. The SBC bolts up to the transaxle as I understand it.  

 

I know very little but this is what I recall:

The 944S (2.5L, DOHC) at 450pts is 190hp

The 944   (2.5/2.7L, SOHC)  at 350-400 pts is 140-165hp  (various mods during the years)

 

I think the problem is that the 'S' engine doesn't seem to be very common or cheap to build. I think most fast 944 teams have the S or S2 engine.

 

 

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5 hours ago, TimS said:

Source a good 944 block, add stroked crank, bore block, add larger pistons, source a nice S2 head, and for much less(points and cash) than the 07k swap you have a nice 944S to race. Some professional assembly needed but surely simpler than the 5cyl Audi swap. I do miss the 944 we raced back in the late 90’s one of the easiest cars to drive fast. Sadly still not cheap to race and not simple to build. 

If you want to run EC you can do it but it’s my understanding that you cannot run any non-OE spec. internal parts. So the bore on 2.5 and 3L blocks can only be .5mm oversized, pistons have to be OE or OE equivalent, factory crank(no strokers, and if you did use the S2 crank you would need the S2 oil pan for more points) You can bolt the S2 head onto a 2.5 block but the coolant passages do not line up without machine work. Also, you would need to take points for the exhaust manifold because 8v and 16v heads use different attachment styles. Once you source all the specific parts and pay for all the machine work you are looking at $10K. 

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5 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

Honestly I have limited knowledge in 944's. I love the looks and want one, almost bought one. All my research suggests like any other make, you want to make sure the maintenance has been kept up. I don't know why a stockish 944 engine cannot compete.  I'd work on getting the car as light as possible, that helps more than picking up 10-20hp.

The problem with being competitive with the 2.5l 8v is most teams start with an early car with the small(ish) fuel tank, 143hp engine and a bunch of other early car “problems”.  You need to start with an 87 or newer.  In the 6 years I’ve been racing with Champ no team has been on the podium with a base 944 except CC and us(1x, small field, home track) and CC was using the 2.7L (163hp) engine.  You can make some extra power from the 2.5 8v but it takes a bunch of money. As you said reducing the weight should be the teams #1 priority, these cars were not light, even after removing the complete roof assembly from my car (competitive) Miatas are still a couple of hundred pounds lighter then us.

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

What I wonder is why you can't get more power from the 8v engines?

 

I talked to a couple of "experts" and they said it was hopeless with to do it with our rules.

 

It's a 2.7L engine, why wouldn't  DIY head port/clean , cam, megasquirt and headers give you 200hp? I can get it from my 1970 datsun...

 

The base swap kit is $1400, I think it's worth it if you can get the intake for free (you can't). Not worth it without the intake.

We looked at running the 2.7 when CC was using one. The issue with that engine is they only used it for 1 year so they are harder to find and more expensive. Also, the engine is filled with parts that are specific to only that year.  

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3 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

was the 2.7 165 stock or is that the 190? been a while since I looked them up. I'd think if you milled the heads and cleaned them up, added a free flow exhaust system you'd free up some power... cams always help too.  Another though is a GM V6. The SBC bolts up to the transaxle as I understand it.  

2.7=163, and you need an adapter plate for the SBC and a 944 turbo transmission(if you stay with Porsche parts) if not you will destroy the R&P in the NA cars.

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17 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

these cars were not light, even after removing the complete roof assembly from my car (competitive) Miatas are still a couple of hundred pounds lighter then us.


gotta swap the torque tube to an aluminum tube or maybe titaniumThat sucker weighs a ton. Can I repurpose some spare aluminum removed from some other parts of the car😀

Edited by TimS
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2 minutes ago, TimS said:


gotta swap the torque tube to an aluminum tube. That sucker weighs a ton

They don’t make one for a 944. 928Motorsports does make them for a 928 though.  I’ve thought about seeing if they would make me one. With the weight of the TT being so low in the car it hasn’t been one of my priorities.  I’ve been concentrating every brain cell I have to try and figure out the best way to put a cell in the car without upsetting the car balance. 🤯

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Fuel cell probably has to be a custom job to fit like the stock tank or possibly the passenger side rear seat well area you already Swiss cheesed. Been so many years I figured one of the 944 turbo guys had built a lightweight torque tube by now. 

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