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Can we please stop changing the swap calculator?


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Kinda hard to build a car when the weights and years available are changing. Car went from being a very doable build to having 17 points for suspension.

 

1981 Cutlass gone. No pre 1980. 1982 Cutlass weight is around 200 pounds less than I recall from a few weeks ago. (I should have wrote it down.) Under 3000 pounds is to laugh.... Did the 1987 Cutty running a 2:59 at RA scare the BOD? Do they think it has a massive fuel tank? It doesn't even though I have seen a BOD member comment as if all old cars do.

 

Is this another example of using weights versus VPI to regulate the series in a not so obvious way? *The T Bird/Coug apparently had it's weight reduced when they relented on the 100 points.

 

*btw-What was the point of removing cars from the VPI list? Not every car on the list is currently raced so that is a lousy answer so don't use it. Forgot to mention that the 1987 Cutlass that actually is running is not on the list. Yet 2019 Fiat Abarths are given a VPI. Nonsensical.

 

Note-There are cars in the swap calc that are not on the VPI list so one can still get something done. Or could. I assume since they are listed there they are still good. The pre 1980 Vette is still 150 points however.

 

Edit-Guess I'll be calling that junkyard with three roached out 1st gen Camaro bodies laying in the weeds. No need for an engine swap to be competitive with one of those.

Edited by Bandit
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Sub 3k is totally doable on a g body fyi...

 

The vpi list is currently under review due to some discrepancies between it and the swap calculator.  I actually thought the swap calculator was taken down until this was resolved.

 

P.s. haven't you been building this car for like 4 or 5 years.  Rules are gonna change in that time frame for sure. 

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Sub 3k is totally doable on a g body fyi...

 

The vpi list is currently under review due to some discrepancies between it and the swap calculator.  I actually thought the swap calculator was taken down until this was resolved.

 

P.s. haven't you been building this car for like 4 or 5 years.  Rules are gonna change in that time frame for sure. 

It's the SWAP weight. And it changed in the last 2-3 weeks. As stated above, did a 1987 Cutlass turning a 2:59 at Road America warrant a weight reduction/penalty? Does anyone think a full size 1981 Cutlass is only 200 pounds heavier than an E30? Actual weight for one, over a scale, is 3500lbs or more stock. Diesels were over 3700. As has been stated by management the weights are no longer based on reality but used to manipulate the field.

 

I know what is possible on a G body. Malibus are much lighter. Most drag G bodies that are not Bu's struggle to get much under 3000 pounds and that is with lightweight body parts.

 

Yes, my build started some time ago. I stated several months ago the reason for it stopping for a while. I don't know if I mentioned crap like this being part of it but it is. Along with the TBird fiasco. (Why build it if it's going to get smacked if it shows any speed. Others, including well know people here have decried the wackamole process.) And, due to VPI/swap changes the body already changed from a Monte to a Cutlass as the weight was more reasonable and now this.

 

btw-It's claimed a very small percentage of the membership uses the forum. I ask how many other people are getting pissed with this crap that never say anything but rather move on?

Edited by Bandit
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I would go find a Regal body but let's see if they change that weight as well. I have it documented now.

Guess I shouldn't have mentioned Cutlass over the past several weeks......

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Just for comparison;

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For those that don't know American cars do you remember when GM was castigated for badge engineering? Those two cars are the same other than trim, nose, and tail treatments. Every chassis part is identical including the frame.

 

For a base Cutlass diesel in 1982. Base means no options and back then about everything was an option. Hence, no A/C, pwr windows, etc, etc;

  • Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Coupe 5.7 Diesel V8 (aut. 3) , model year 1982, version for North America (up to September)
  • manufactured by Oldsmobile in United States
  • 2-door coupe body type
  • RWD (rear-wheel drive), automatic 3-speed gearbox
  • diesel fuel engine with displacement: 5737 cm3 / 350.1 cui, advertised power: 78 kW / 105 hp / 106 PS ( SAE net ), torque: 271 Nm / 200 lb-ft, more data: 1982 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Coupe 5.7 Diesel V8 (aut. 3) Horsepower/Torque Curve
  • characteristic dimensions: outside length: 5080 mm / 200 in, width: 1819 mm / 71.6 in, wheelbase: 2746 mm / 108.1 in
  • reference weights: base curb weight: 1606 kg / 3540 lbs

 

Just for laughs here is the 1988 BMW E30 with an auto;

 

  • reference weights: base curb weight: 1264 kg / 2786 lbs

 

I'm seeing about 800 pounds difference yet in the swap calc it's only 200.....And the BMW is about the actual stock weight....

Edited by Bandit
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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 minute ago, Bill Strong said:

Nothing changed other than me removing the online calculator.

 

You removed the online VPI Lookup tool, correct?  

 

The Online Swap Calculator is still present and generating results.

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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

Nothing changed other than me removing the online calculator.

Nothing changed in the weights table either??

 

I am skeptical of anything you say after you defended for months that “no rules changed” and ‘nothing shady was being done’ a couple years ago when the e30 swap weight got an unannounced weight reduction in the ‘swap weight table’.

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21 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Nothing changed in the weights table either??

 

I am skeptical of anything you say after you defended for months that “no rules changed” and ‘nothing shady was being done’ a couple years ago when the e30 swap weight got an unannounced weight reduction in the ‘swap weight table’.

I know our weight changed for 2021....got a nice unexpected 9 point bump...

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12 hours ago, Bandit said:

Kinda hard to build a car when the weights and years available are changing. Car went from being a very doable build to having 17 points for suspension.

 

1981 Cutlass gone. No pre 1980. 1982 Cutlass weight is around 200 pounds less than I recall from a few weeks ago. (I should have wrote it down.) Under 3000 pounds is to laugh.... Did the 1987 Cutty running a 2:59 at RA scare the BOD? Do they think it has a massive fuel tank? It doesn't even though I have seen a BOD member comment as if all old cars do.

 

Is this another example of using weights versus VPI to regulate the series in a not so obvious way? *The T Bird/Coug apparently had it's weight reduced when they relented on the 100 points.

 

*btw-What was the point of removing cars from the VPI list? Not every car on the list is currently raced so that is a lousy answer so don't use it. Forgot to mention that the 1987 Cutlass that actually is running is not on the list. Yet 2019 Fiat Abarths are given a VPI. Nonsensical.

 

Note-There are cars in the swap calc that are not on the VPI list so one can still get something done. Or could. I assume since they are listed there they are still good. The pre 1980 Vette is still 150 points however.

 

Edit-Guess I'll be calling that junkyard with three roached out 1st gen Camaro bodies laying in the weeds. No need for an engine swap to be competitive with one of those.

Gen II is a better car. 150 for a 350 4 speed. TONS of aftermarket go fast stuff, including a bunch of suspension upgrades, so count as "stock" - no points. There is a reason some circle tracks ban them, or everybody uses them, and it isn't because the cars can be had cheap. 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said:

I know our weight changed for 2021....got a nice unexpected 9 point bump...

That was discussed at the BOD meeting and was an unintentional issue resolving from the way the CSV files work in the backend of the website.

 

It should be resolved now - if it is not please email me and I will work to correct it.

 

We are also working to understand why this system keeps resulting in accidental errors.  We want to improve the process going forward.  

 

Sorry for the confusion

Chris

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2 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

That was discussed at the BOD meeting and was an unintentional issue resolving from the way the CSV files work in the backend of the website.

 

It should be resolved now - if it is not please email me and I will work to correct it.

 

We are also working to understand why this system keeps resulting in accidental errors.  We want to improve the process going forward.  

 

Sorry for the confusion

Chris

Sending an email.

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5 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

Gen II is a better car. 150 for a 350 4 speed. TONS of aftermarket go fast stuff, including a bunch of suspension upgrades, so count as "stock" - no points. There is a reason some circle tracks ban them, or everybody uses them, and it isn't because the cars can be had cheap. 

1st gen is lighter and even cooler. Only downside is the smaller fuel tank as the suspension is easily fixed.

 

Sheetmetal is pretty cheap which any of the three would need. Rockers, floorpans, complete front end, SUBFRAME, etc. They are just very rough shells which is the only reason they are still laying there. 

 

Also found a Dekon Monza candidate while searching for the Cutty bod but I'm concerned about one of those being too small as I'm 6'4". I fit in a Monza years ago but that didn't have a cage. The junkyard car is actually in decent shape though compared to the Camaros. Complete car on wheels.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bandit said:

1st gen is lighter and even cooler. Only downside is the smaller fuel tank as the suspension is easily fixed.

 

Sheetmetal is pretty cheap which any of the three would need. Rockers, floorpans, complete front end, SUBFRAME, etc. They are just very rough shells which is the only reason they are still laying there. 

 

Also found a Dekon Monza candidate while searching for the Cutty bod but I'm concerned about one of those being too small as I'm 6'4". I fit in a Monza years ago but that didn't have a cage. The junkyard car is actually in decent shape though compared to the Camaros. Complete car on wheels.

 

 

we don't have ANY yards around here like that anymore. Most won't even let you walk around. SUCKS. My buddy (a girl) had a V8 4 speed Monza back in the late 80's car was fun. 

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well. from my point of view, I have seen no errors with the online calculator.
so yes. that's still up and working.

 

That's the tool that tech is using to tech swapped cars.
If for some reason you don't like the swap calculator, there is one simple fix.

 

don't swap.  :)

 

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NA/LE5 Ecotec swap went up 9 points (to 410 vs. last years 401).  That helps level the playing field for an NB/LE5 swap, it's not all the way there, but it gets us a lot closer, and probably saved us from swapping shells after the 2021 season.  

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14 minutes ago, WTFover said:

NA/LE5 Ecotec swap went up 9 points (to 410 vs. last years 401).  That helps level the playing field for an NB/LE5 swap, it's not all the way there, but it gets us a lot closer, and probably saved us from swapping shells after the 2021 season.  

It is still broken?!  

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11 hours ago, Jer said:

It is still broken?!  

It still uses the 2048 swap weight which was originally the swap weight for NA6 MIatas before the platform swap requirement that made them use the NA8 starting value.  If I remember correctly, you were in the discussion that if NA Miatas took the NA8 value they then took the highest NA8 weight as the swap weight....similar to e30's getting the special winter package convertible automatic transmission weight for their swap weight value to allow for the M50,52,54, Honda K swap, all ok....

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42 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

It still uses the 2048 swap weight which was originally the swap weight for NA6 MIatas before the platform swap requirement that made them use the NA8 starting value.  If I remember correctly, you were in the discussion that if NA Miatas took the NA8 value they then took the highest NA8 weight as the swap weight....similar to e30's getting the special winter package convertible automatic transmission weight for their swap weight value to allow for the M50,52,54, Honda K swap, all ok....

Weights are based on nothing other than what someone decides they should be for performance balancing per a post by Jer himself a while back.

 

Quote

Let me address this AGAIN.  Swap weights are nothing more at this point than performance multipliers.  If the 90% of stock weight doesn't put the car where we want it, we adjust the factor to get it where we want it, which is competitive but not an overdog.  Everyone keeps referencing weights like we had set it up 4 years ago, but those weights were massaged early on in Mike's tenure as CEO to get the desired results.  It's not really swap weights anymore (and hasn't been since 2018) it a competition swap factor, or to the cynical, a fudge factor.  

 

I think we created the issue as a series by going away from 90% of stock weight in many cases but still pretending we were using "weights".  That was a mistake.

 

https://forum.champcar.org/topic/21096-for-your-consideration-a-new-look-at-rules/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-435448

 

An E30 is heavier than it's stock weight in the swap calc while most G bodies, Camaro's, etc are 20%+ lighter for instance.

 

Edited by Bandit
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33 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Weights are based on nothing other than what someone decides they should be for performance balancing per a post by Jer himself a while back.

 

 

https://forum.champcar.org/topic/21096-for-your-consideration-a-new-look-at-rules/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-435448

 

An E30 is heavier than it's stock weight in the swap calc while most G bodies, Camaro's, etc are 20%+ lighter for instance.

 

I'm the guy that actually got approval to weigh cars at Road America 2018, I know a lot about it and have a spreadsheet.  Yes, Mike C. did say that e30 weights are fudged to allow for the common swap. and not based on performance.  That said, I do not see why we gained 9 points for nothing more than the swap weight changing.

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