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MR2 Biohazard
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? on parts on the same car platform and chassis from different years.

 

The 91-95 MR2 is the same value NA from 91-95. Can I use parts from a 93 on my 91 or do all the parts for any car have the be the same year and model options that came with that year car?

 

On the MR2 91-92 is has a rear cross member and tie rods are different than the 93-95. The 93-95 has longer tie rods and the location of the inner pivot is closer to the center to help with rear end stability. Can I simply swap these out?

 

My question then is if the same car model and chassis code has the same VPI value from year to year in a range can we use any items that came from any of those cars over those years?

 

Another example would be E30 parts, such as a rear diff. Could you use any E30 rear diff from any year or option car? Or can you only use the rear diff from the year of your car and possible options that the car came with.  Example, 1984 E30 320 had the option of 3.46 diff ratio.  Can I put it any rear diff ratio that came in an E30 and be fine, or do I have to use the 3.46 because that was the only option available for that specific model and year?

 

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I asked whether I could mix and match '84-'87 vs '88 Fiero suspension parts; the answer at the time was no. Same VPI.

 

To my knowledge, Champcar doesn't allow putting a car together with all the best parts of a chassis generation but there have been some very notable and questioned exceptions to that. 

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2 things.

1) the diff might not be a great example because it is something that has it's own special allowance.

 

2) you can not Make a car that never existed from the factory.  If you change everything over to the later spec, just call it the later spec car.  Mix and matching is not allowed.....

 

 

....unless you run a 3rd gen camaro.  Then you can run a manual behind a 350.

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15 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

2 things.

1) the diff might not be a great example because it is something that has it's own special allowance.

 

2) you can not Make a car that never existed from the factory.  If you change everything over to the later spec, just call it the later spec car.  Mix and matching is not allowed.....

 

 

....unless you run a 3rd gen camaro.  Then you can run a manual behind a 350.

 

The only differences on the MR2 Na are as follows.  91-92 are the same car, 93-95 have a different cross member, 94-95 trans had a double syncro instead of single syncro setup, which was much nicer, but impossible to find outside of the car. The rest is the same. The VPI is the same for all the years. If I wanted to run the 93 crossmember how do I do that? Or do I need to go out and find and entire new car and build that and get the same end result? I am trying to understand the logic.

20 minutes ago, mender said:

I asked whether I could mix and match '84-'87 vs '88 Fiero suspension parts; the answer at the time was no. Same VPI.

 

To my knowledge, Champcar doesn't allow putting a car together with all the best parts of a chassis generation but there have been some very notable and questioned exceptions to that. 

Do we have a list of these exceptions?

 

On the Feiro they are all the same VPI points and same line item from 84-88.  If you buy an 88 with all the newer setup and start out at 150 or get an older one and just bolt on the newer bits it is the same thing. I do not understand why you could not. I must be missing something.

 

Now if the VPI changed from year to year then I could understand that as the better bits are taken into consideration. The claim is that the VPI takes reliability, speed and fuel tank size into consideration. If that is true then I would think we need to look at each line item vehicle and years to see what mid model changes there are and adjust VPI's up and down.  

 

Examples would be if a car has a 5 year span, like the MR2, and the 94-95 has a more reliable trans and better suspension setup than that should have a slightly higher VPI.

 

OR, if a model had a 10 year span and the first two years it did not come with an oil cooler, but the remaining 8 did then I would have to think the first two years has to have a lower VPI.  If not then it is saying that the VPI does not consider reliability into it. I would think you would want to lower the first two years by 20 points so that they oil cooler could be added and the same end value as the later year same model.

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I think your overthinking this man.   If everything else is the same, and you add the cross member from a 93-95 but not the 94-95 transmission, then claim the car as a 93.  If you have the newer transmission, then claim as a 94 or 95.  
 

We can’t expect absolutely every little thing that changes on cars in their production cycle to be accounted for. Some stuff doesn’t matter, or matters so little, that it doesn’t warrant a VPI change.  

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Yup, it's easy, whatever year/make/model you claim the car as (and take the vpi for), all the parts must match that year. This is exactly what the platform swap rule defines, except it's targeted at much bigger changes, I.E. if you start with an MR2 NA chassis and put in the turbo engine, you also have to swap the trans, etc.

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3 hours ago, mender said:

I asked whether I could mix and match '84-'87 vs '88 Fiero suspension parts; the answer at the time was no. Same VPI.

 

To my knowledge, Champcar doesn't allow putting a car together with all the best parts of a chassis generation but there have been some very notable and questioned exceptions to that. 

??? Gen III F-body's come to mind. 

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

The only differences on the MR2 Na are as follows.  91-92 are the same car, 93-95 have a different cross member, 94-95 trans had a double syncro instead of single syncro setup, which was much nicer, but impossible to find outside of the car. The rest is the same. The VPI is the same for all the years. If I wanted to run the 93 crossmember how do I do that? Or do I need to go out and find and entire new car and build that and get the same end result? I am trying to understand the logic.

Do we have a list of these exceptions?

 

On the Feiro they are all the same VPI points and same line item from 84-88.  If you buy an 88 with all the newer setup and start out at 150 or get an older one and just bolt on the newer bits it is the same thing. I do not understand why you could not. I must be missing something.

 

Now if the VPI changed from year to year then I could understand that as the better bits are taken into consideration. The claim is that the VPI takes reliability, speed and fuel tank size into consideration. If that is true then I would think we need to look at each line item vehicle and years to see what mid model changes there are and adjust VPI's up and down.  

 

Examples would be if a car has a 5 year span, like the MR2, and the 94-95 has a more reliable trans and better suspension setup than that should have a slightly higher VPI.

 

OR, if a model had a 10 year span and the first two years it did not come with an oil cooler, but the remaining 8 did then I would have to think the first two years has to have a lower VPI.  If not then it is saying that the VPI does not consider reliability into it. I would think you would want to lower the first two years by 20 points so that they oil cooler could be added and the same end value as the later year same model.

Make it simple...  vin doesn't matter.  If it has ALL later stuff, claim it as a later car.

 

Can't mix and match.

 

If trans is different, it's a trans swap.

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45 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Make it simple...  vin doesn't matter.  If it has ALL later stuff, claim it as a later car.

 

Can't mix and match.

 

If trans is different, it's a trans swap.

So if I use the lower crossmember and tie rods from a 93 just claim it as a 93 and that is all good?

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8 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

So if I use the lower crossmember and tie rods from a 93 just claim it as a 93 and that is all good?

If everything else is the same, then yes.  Obviously things like wheels, brakes, interior poop, doesn’t matter if they changed or not.  Even shocks and springs don’t really matter now that they are “open” 

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33 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

So if I use the lower crossmember and tie rods from a 93 just claim it as a 93 and that is all good?

As long as everything else in the car is the same as a '93.

 

Doesn't work that way for a Fiero, there were year by year changes in small things and then the full suspension redesign in '88. I can't bolt the '88 rear suspension on an earlier Fiero because the front suspension is different, and the front frame rails changed for '88. I also can't use the '84 front lower control arms if I claim a later Fiero to allow me to use the bigger fuel tank.

 

Which kind of leads into the next question: when swapping an engine, "4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation." 

 

Does the rest of the car now have to follow the specs of the highest value model exactly? For instance, my Civic has to use the Si VPI at 200 points. My actual car is not an Si so doesn't have the rear disc brake hubs. Does that mean that I have to take points for using the drum brake hubs that came on the car from the factory? 2.5 points per non-OE hub?

Edited by mender
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6 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

? on parts on the same car platform and chassis from different years.

 

The 91-95 MR2 is the same value NA from 91-95. Can I use parts from a 93 on my 91 or do all the parts for any car have the be the same year and model options that came with that year car?

 

On the MR2 91-92 is has a rear cross member and tie rods are different than the 93-95. The 93-95 has longer tie rods and the location of the inner pivot is closer to the center to help with rear end stability. Can I simply swap these out?

 

My question then is if the same car model and chassis code has the same VPI value from year to year in a range can we use any items that came from any of those cars over those years?

 

Another example would be E30 parts, such as a rear diff. Could you use any E30 rear diff from any year or option car? Or can you only use the rear diff from the year of your car and possible options that the car came with.  Example, 1984 E30 320 had the option of 3.46 diff ratio.  Can I put it any rear diff ratio that came in an E30 and be fine, or do I have to use the 3.46 because that was the only option available for that specific model and year?

What's your motive here? This has been covered many times.

 

I intended to write a petition to add an explicit rule on this because people don't want to connect the dots which lead you to the "no mix and match" rule.

 

1) Pick a car on the VPI list. You pick a specific make / model / year

2) Any part that isn't OE must be claimed for points or must fall into one of those legal free upgrade categories. (certain dampers / certain springs / etc.)

Quote

4.4.1. ALL non-stock components, parts, assemblies, or systems MUST be declared to Tech Inspection, noted in the vehicle Logbook, and declared and accounted for in the total points of the vehicle.

 

-- with the knowledge that a part which wasn't original to your car is "not OE", regardless of it's appearance on some other similar car, we connect the dots to 3)

 

3) Mix 'n matched parts from different years must be claimed for points

 

 

But this question keeps getting asked, so I think we need a separate rule which says in some way "no free mix 'n match". Thanks for the reminder.

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

If everything else is the same, then yes.  Obviously things like wheels, brakes, interior poop, doesn’t matter if they changed or not.  Even shocks and springs don’t really matter now that they are “open” 

I was told I was not allowed to change anything at all. I got the NO from tech on changing from year to year, even same platform with the same VPI points. Then it had me wondering about E30's with diffs and all the other cars out there that might have taken that liberty. I guess I should not have asked and should have just done it is was I have been told by a few. Uggg.

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

What's your motive here? This has been covered many times.

 

I intended to write a petition to add an explicit rule on this because people don't want to connect the dots which lead you to the "no mix and match" rule.

 

1) Pick a car on the VPI list. You pick a specific make / model / year

2) Any part that isn't OE must be claimed for points or must fall into one of those legal free upgrade categories. (certain dampers / certain springs / etc.)

 

-- with the knowledge that a part which wasn't original to your car is "not OE", regardless of it's appearance on some other similar car, we connect the dots to 3)

 

3) Mix 'n matched parts from different years must be claimed for points

 

 

But this question keeps getting asked, so I think we need a separate rule which says in some way "no free mix 'n match". Thanks for the reminder.

I am asking because I am trying to make logical sense of it and I ask the reasons why. My motive has been stated about the rear crossmember and tie rods of the mr2 and if I can add that for zero points. If you have a link to the discussion before please link me and let me know and I will gladly read it.

 

If Car A from 2000 to 2005 has a VPI of 300 for all years, but year 2004 and 2005 came with an oil cooler OEM and I get the oem oil cooler and put it on my 2000 then it is 20 points? According to you it should be, but the rest of the car is the same. That is why I wonder.

 

The other argument then is that each model year needs a different VPI if anything at all is different that will add to performance or reliability as the vpi should reflect both. In this case the base VPI can stay at 300 for 2004-2005 cars and then lowered to 280 for 2000-2001-2003 cars. This assumes that the 20 points for an oil cooler on the newer car would equate to reliability and be the standard so a less reliable car should have a lower vpi.  To say all cars have the same exact VPI, but have different parts that can make the car faster or more reliable then it should not be the same.

 

Or, the same car then I could get a 2000 model without the oil cooler, put on the oem oil cooler and just claim the car as a 2003? If that was the only difference then that should be fine?

 

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Just curious, have you read the platform rule?

 

If the car smells, looks and tastes exactly like a 94, call it a 94.

 

If it has ANYTHING different that is a points carrying part, you need to pay for that part.

 

In other words, if everything is the same except the transmission, you need to claim a trans swap when you claim it as a 94.

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23 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

So it doesn't matter what year the body/ chassis is from? 

 

As long as you have the engine, tranny,suspension from the year you are claiming?

 

Yep.

 

Just to clarify, VINs don't matter.  At all.

 

If you want to build a 1982 tunaslapper up as a 1984 tunaslapper with the updated googly bits, go ahead and call it a 1984 tunaslapper and take the value as a 1984 tunaslapper.  

 

This only applies to cars that are the same platform.

 

Also, if the 84 has updated googly bits, but also has a smaller fuel tank than the 82 tunaslapper you started with....  well, you are running the small fuel tank too.  

 

 

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56 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just curious, have you read the platform rule?

 

If the car smells, looks and tastes exactly like a 94, call it a 94.

 

If it has ANYTHING different that is a points carrying part, you need to pay for that part.

 

In other words, if everything is the same except the transmission, you need to claim a trans swap when you claim it as a 94.

I did read it, but was told NO by tech that I could not use the newer items on the car. I am not sure why I was told that now though after rereading the rule yet again. If I swap over all items that differentiate the model year to year then it should be a platform swap.

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Here is info about final drive gear from the rules. 

 

• Final drive ratio is open to all factory offered ratios for that body style or chassis generation. If that body style or chassis generation was offered from the factory with an LSD, its use is permitted. Specialty high-performance models not listed on the VPI table are excluded

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36 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I did read it, but was told NO by tech that I could not use the newer items on the car. I am not sure why I was told that now though after rereading the rule yet again. If I swap over all items that differentiate the model year to year then it should be a platform swap.

Tech was right.  You can’t add those parts for zero points to your car as it is.  You need to claim it as a different year.  The rule is not going to fit every situation perfectly. But it does make sense.  

Your going off the deep end with your oil cooler poop man. The number of cases of that actually happening would be slim. Even then, it’s very likely to make a difference.  

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I did read it, but was told NO by tech that I could not use the newer items on the car. I am not sure why I was told that now though after rereading the rule yet again. If I swap over all items that differentiate the model year to year then it should be a platform swap.

You probably didn't clarify "use the newer items AND claim the newer model year". Tech probably assumed you wanted to use the newer items for free while still claiming the older model.

You can a 1994 or a 1992 or a 1990, doesn't matter. What matters is that whatever make/model/year you claim to be running, you must have all the parts for that year and none of the parts from a different year.

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4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just curious, have you read the platform rule?

 

If the car smells, looks and tastes exactly like a 94, call it a 94.

 

If it has ANYTHING different that is a points carrying part, you need to pay for that part.

 

In other words, if everything is the same except the transmission, you need to claim a trans swap when you claim it as a 94.

Yeah, unless you are a certain team running a certain car. 

The email response I received from Tech when I inquired about a Gen 3 F-body running a 4-speed transmission behind a claimed 350 when that combo was never available OE. 

Just LOL...

Quote
I agree the Gen 3 '88 did not have a 4 spd
 
The Gen 3  '82 did come with a 4 speed
 
So since the '88 is in the same platform as the '82 platform (gen 3 ran '82 to '92)  the tranny is a compliant use.

 

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