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Untouched junkyard Ford 4.6 NPI 2 valve a good idea?


turbogrill
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Hi

 

How would an early Ford 4.6 V8 2 valve (1991-1996) engine work in Champcar? Are these engines something you can take from the junkyard and go racing?

 

Or do they need some massaging before you go endurance racing with them? Are these engines old and crappy?

 

The 1991-1996 engines are rated at 190-210hp, fits the swap calculator well and 200whp should be doable with bolt ons. The 1996+ has a better head but these makes the swap points explode.

 

Edit:
Taking points for a PI intake should give 15whp or so, might be worth it.

Edited by turbogrill
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On 2/1/2021 at 10:36 AM, turbogrill said:

Hi

 

How would an early Ford 4.6 V8 2 valve (1991-1996) engine work in Champcar? Are these engines something you can take from the junkyard and go racing?

 

Or do they need some massaging before you go endurance racing with them? Are these engines old and crappy?

 

The 1991-1996 engines are rated at 190-210hp, fits the swap calculator well and 200whp should be doable with bolt ons. The 1996+ has a better head but these makes the swap points explode.

 

Edit:
Taking points for a PI intake should give 15whp or so, might be worth it.

On the street, those engines are pretty damn solid, the only issues seem to be timing chain rub rails and intake manifold failures, neither are hard to address.

 

Choose a engine with a clean cooling system and little to no varnish when you look in the oil fill hole and it should be a great candidate.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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6 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

A 2.4L Ecotec motor is Less than 300lbs (N52 is 350lbs) and can pretty easily make 210-215hp. Just sayin

 

Yes, I was looking at the MZR 2.5 and a cam as well. (Very similar type of engine as Ecotec).

 

It's not a bad route, cheap and lots of info. The average HP is lower on the ecotec/mzr than the N52 so a little less power.

 

They claim that a Ecotec can do 208-210 whp "untouched", seems a little good to be true?

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Just now, turbogrill said:

 

Yes, I was looking at the MZR 2.5 and a cam as well. (Very similar type of engine as Ecotec).

 

It's not a bad route, cheap and lots of info. The average HP is lower on the ecotec/mzr than the N52 so a little less power.

 

They claim that a Ecotec can do 208-210 whp "untouched", seems a little good to be true?

Depends what you want to call "untouched". Header and a tune will get you 195-200.  More than that requires a bit of work.  That's assuming you've already opened up the intake and exhaust.   And they are a dime a dozen. I picked up a spare with 40k kms on it for $400CAD.

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13 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Depends what you want to call "untouched". Header and a tune will get you 195-200.  More than that requires a bit of work.  That's assuming you've already opened up the intake and exhaust.   And they are a dime a dozen. I picked up a spare with 40k kms on it for $400CAD.

 

The price is very appealing. Is the 2.4 LE5 the ones to get?

 

There is also a K24A2 with some points for header and intake, not sure how heavy those are.

Edited by turbogrill
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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

The price is very appealing. Is the 2.4 LE5 the ones to get?

 

There is also a K24A2 with some points for header and intake, not sure how heavy those are.

Yeah, the 2.4. But make sure its out of a Cobalt SS. The Pontiac G5 GT is also ok, but the Cobalt SS intake is the best.  The equinox, Vue etc intakes are not as good.

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How much power do you need?

 

Stock, they are rated at 180 (3400) and 201 (3500).

 

With some standard hot rod practices, they can make about 190 at the wheels (3500).

 

They do have cams available for more horepowers. Headers can be fabricated (not needed though).

 

We run a warmed over 3500 in our car.  It makes good grunt!

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6 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

more power potential at a cheaper price with the V8. 

Cheaper than 200$?  

 

It depends on what car it's going in, how much reliability is important, and how many points are available.

 

I can count on 1 hand the number of v8s that have turned faster laps than us.  I can count on 1 or 2 finges how many swapped v8s turned faster laps than us.  We aren't the fastest team in the field either.

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It is a v6.  Yep, not gonna make 300 go without crazy amounts of work on it.  Like, choose a different engine if 300 is your goal.

 

200 is the sweet spot for this engine.

 

They are pretty light due to an 'll aluminum top end and aluminum accessories.  Very compact and reliable too!

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50 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It is a v6.  Yep, not gonna make 300 go without crazy amounts of work on it.  Like, choose a different engine if 300 is your goal.

 

200 is the sweet spot for this engine.

 

They are pretty light due to an 'll aluminum top end and aluminum accessories.  Very compact and reliable too!

 

got it .

 

thanks

 

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9 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

How do you get power from a LX9 or GM3500? I spend 5hours googling them and my conclusion was that it was difficult to get power. What does the experts say?

Switch to the '99 Montana ECU, buy a bigger cam, make 240+ hp if you want. Not at all difficult.

 

Go to 14:00 to hear and see what an LX9 sounds and pulls like (stock cam); also you can see my passenger side fuel cell:

 

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12 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Cheaper than 200$?  

 

It depends on what car it's going in, how much reliability is important, and how many points are available.

 

I can count on 1 hand the number of v8s that have turned faster laps than us.  I can count on 1 or 2 finges how many swapped v8s turned faster laps than us.  We aren't the fastest team in the field either.

With the points structure continuing to drop. You are going to see more V8's. I do agree the 4.6 is heavy, I think the old 5.0 is lighter.  The good thing about a V8 over V6 is you have more torque and HP and a lower rpm. 

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For racing, it's all about the usable power band.

 

If an engine produces more average horsepower through the rpm range that is being used, it'll be more beneficial than one that has a higher peak number somewhere in the power band but has holes in the power curve for whatever reason. With domestic larger displacement V8s, it's typically air restricted and tapers off at the top; smaller displacements can make more power but will usually need more rpm to do so. 

 

The gear ratio spacing in the transmission comes into play by determining the rpm drop after a shift. A wide ratio gear set that works well with a low rpm engine can allow a smaller engine to drop out of the meat of the power band. A close ratio box on the smaller engine can make up to 10% more average power than a wide ratio box, so proper selection of the drive train components is important.

 

Image result for power band shift points racing

Edited by mender
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12 hours ago, turbogrill said:

I would gladly do a GM 3500 or a V6 if they where ligther. It seems better suited for 300whp where it becomes difficult for a 2.5-3 liter engine. 

360 lbs. The cam is the bottleneck for these engines, similar to the LS so would be the first step in making more power. They also work well with turbos if you're wanting 300 whp.

Edited by mender
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16 minutes ago, mender said:

For racing, it's all about the usable power band.

 

If an engine produces more average horsepower through the rpm range that is being used, it'll be more beneficial than one that has a higher peak number somewhere in the power band but has holes in the power curve for whatever reason. With domestic larger displacement V8s, it's typically air restricted and tapers off at the top; smaller displacements can make more power but will usually need more rpm to do so. 

 

The gear ratio spacing in the transmission comes into play by determining the rpm drop after a shift. A wide ratio gear set that works well with a low rpm engine can allow a smaller engine to drop out of the meat of the power band. A close ratio box on the smaller engine can make up to 10% more average power than a wide ratio box, so proper selection of the drive train components is important.

 

Image result for power band shift points racing

 

It’s the old fallacy that Harley guys use to tell them selves that they have a wide power band because they make a lot of torque at 2000 RPM, while a 250cc 4 cylinder superbike that makes peak power at 18,000 rpm but starts making good power by 12,000 rpm actually has much wider useable power.

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24 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

 

It’s the old fallacy that Harley guys use to tell them selves that they have a wide power band because they make a lot of torque at 2000 RPM, while a 250cc 4 cylinder superbike that makes peak power at 18,000 rpm but starts making good power by 12,000 rpm actually has much wider useable power.

Another fallacy is looking at the rpm difference between peak torque and peak horsepower as being an indicator of the width of the power band.

 

image.jpeg.1dffad6c456cefebf83af19626eb440b.jpeg

 

The actual power band of this engine for our usage is most likely starting where the two lines cross in the pink area and extending off the end of the scale, giving the highest average horsepower for each gear. 

Edited by mender
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45 minutes ago, mender said:

For racing, it's all about the usable power band.

 

If an engine produces more average horsepower through the rpm range that is being used, it'll be more beneficial than one that has a higher peak number somewhere in the power band but has holes in the power curve for whatever reason. With domestic larger displacement V8s, it's typically air restricted and tapers off at the top; smaller displacements can make more power but will usually need more rpm to do so. 

 

The gear ratio spacing in the transmission comes into play by determining the rpm drop after a shift. A wide ratio gear set that works well with a low rpm engine can allow a smaller engine to drop out of the meat of the power band. A close ratio box on the smaller engine can make up to 10% more average power than a wide ratio box, so proper selection of the drive train components is important.

 

Image result for power band shift points racing

 

Really likes those charts! Shows how important gearing is. I wish it was easier to change gearing....

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