Jump to content

K24 - too good to be true?


Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

The K24A2 seems like an amazing engine, revs to the moon and makes tons of power with bolt ons. All aluminium and not to expensive (<$1000 on ebay).

 

Is there any disadvantages with these engines? Besides being FWD application (and all the headache with that) it seems to be a great engine?

 

The K24Z3 is also interesting, a little less power but having the exhaust manifold integrated saves you 25pts in the swap since you don't need an aftermarket header. Also a little cheaper

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 71
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I don't know why more people don't look at the J30 swap. (200hp) 350 lbs. This car won 4 races in a row in 2017. It had 456 points. Car was 2250 lbs. The weak link was the stock Z trans, and

So, let me get this straight...   The Honda guy says don't use a k series engine because they haven't been terribly reliable and can't make easy power like a v8 (sounds like he is advocating

I'm not sure what is meant by saying I am partial toward Hondas, or a pre-emptive hammer drop on V8's? Late 80s - early 2000s Hondas are what I know best, that is certainly true. It is hard to tell on

Posted Images

23 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Hi,

 

The K24A2 seems like an amazing engine, revs to the moon and makes tons of power with bolt ons. All aluminium and not to expensive (<$1000 on ebay).

 

Is there any disadvantages with these engines? Besides being FWD application (and all the headache with that) it seems to be a great engine?

 

The K24Z3 is also interesting, a little less power but having the exhaust manifold integrated saves you 25pts in the swap since you don't need an aftermarket header. Also a little cheaper

put it in the trunk, boom RWD. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

put it in the trunk, boom RWD. 

 

That would be amazing.  The 280zx has the fuel tank behind the rear axle, maybe replace the fuel tank with a subaru transaxle and a K24?

 

Kinda like a 911 but with a Japanese touch?

 

 

 

Edited by turbogrill
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Technical Advisory Committee
54 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Hi,

 

The K24A2 seems like an amazing engine, revs to the moon and makes tons of power with bolt ons. All aluminium and not to expensive (<$1000 on ebay).

 

Is there any disadvantages with these engines? Besides being FWD application (and all the headache with that) it seems to be a great engine?

 

The K24Z3 is also interesting, a little less power but having the exhaust manifold integrated saves you 25pts in the swap since you don't need an aftermarket header. Also a little cheaper


B and K series Honda engines are very good for their size. I don't think they are particularly good for ChampCar though. A good judge of what kind of HP an engine can make after tuning and removing any sort of bottle neck an engine has is to look at the TQ. 

A 305 SBC from 1982 has 145hp and 240tq. Now, that is a good engine for this series. It would be quite easy to double the rated HP of that engine with only a few points. With a Honda engine that is completely impossible without forced induction. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

A 305 SBC from 1982 has 145hp and 240tq. Now, that is a good engine for this series. It would be quite easy to double the rated HP of that engine with only a few points. With a Honda engine that is completely impossible without forced induction. 

IMO low compression, relatively tame, OHV/cam-in-block V8s are completely overlooked in this series. 

That's why we built what we built. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

23 minutes ago, Snorman said:

IMO low compression, relatively tame, OHV/cam-in-block V8s are completely overlooked in this series. 

That's why we built what we built. 

 

Aren't the weight an issue?

 

Or can you get a ton of power cheap so its worth it?

 

edit:
Cheap as in points not $$$

Edited by turbogrill
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

Aren't the weight an issue?

 

Or can you get a ton of power cheap so its worth it?

 

edit:
Cheap as in points not $$$


Let's take a 1990 RX7 as an example:

let's use the same RX7 and use any sbc engine with a sub 200 hp rating, let's use whatever variant had the best cam and highest compression while staying under 200hp to keep the swap 50 points. Now go with an aftermarket head, aftermarket intake, and aftermarket carb; then go with rams horn headers at 0 points too.  I would think this would be 350 - 400 whp in Champ spec? This swapped car might now weigh 2650#? 

SBC swapped RX7 is now 7:1 PWR

With 20.5 gallons, you may need to short shift and hope for some yellows but this would be an absolute monster car. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time this came up the conclusion from my end was that it's to much work to build a 400whp SBC that is reliable. I am sure there are people in this forum that can do it.

 

Isn't this was everyones favorite Corvette did?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

B and K series Honda engines are very good for their size. I don't think they are particularly good for ChampCar though.

 What Honda engine was in the CRX running in the 2:40's at Road America?

 

Seems adequate.... Or was that supposed to be green?

 

An SBC in an RX7 would be awesome, however few (no one?) want to spend the time and money to actually go through an engine with a full rebuild. Would be wise to do two in case you have a failure, so there is more expense. An old junkyard 70's SBC out of a farm truck that's been laying in the weeds for a decade or two isn't going to finish a race as is.

 

Then add is a trans and possibly a rear end, no idea on the strength of RX7's in that area, and it starts eating points as well as gas.

 

Also, your comparison intimating the SBC is far superior to the little Honda sewing machines overlooks the fact that other than a few examples a SBC only fits in a larger car. Being a TAC member should we be expecting a pre-emptive hammer drop on V8's? Frankly that is the impression I am getting from your post knowing your partiality towards Honda's.

 

Not to mention the series has already dropped 50 points on a Mustang while ignoring the 150 point CRX that ran the same lap times and finished on the same lap. While also giving that same CRX 500 pounds in the fudge factory. (swap calc), You drive and help maintain that car don't you?

 

eta-Your hypothetical engine will cost 325 points including the 50 points for the swap.

 

Going from memory but should be correct;

swap-50 pts

heads-100

cam-50

intake-25

carb/efi-25

rockers-50 (Crowd Control was smart in picking the Cobra in that it has factory rollers)

distributor-25

Edited by Bandit
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Technical Advisory Committee
41 minutes ago, Bandit said:

 What Honda engine was in the CRX running in the 2:40's at Road America?

 

Seems adequate.... Or was that supposed to be green?

 

An SBC in an RX7 would be awesome, however few (no one?) want to spend the time and money to actually go through an engine with a full rebuild. Would be wise to do two in case you have a failure, so there is more expense. An old junkyard 70's SBC out of a farm truck that's been laying in the weeds for a decade or two isn't going to finish a race as is.

 

Then add is a trans and possibly a rear end, no idea on the strength of RX7's in that area, and it starts eating points as well as gas.

 

Also, your comparison intimating the SBC is far superior to the little Honda sewing machines overlooks the fact that other than a few examples a SBC only fits in a larger car. Being a TAC member should we be expecting a pre-emptive hammer drop on V8's? Frankly that is the impression I am getting from your post knowing your partiality towards Honda's.

 

Not to mention the series has already dropped 50 points on a Mustang while ignoring the 150 point CRX that ran the same lap times and finished on the same lap. While also giving that same CRX 500 pounds in the fudge factory. (swap calc), You drive and help maintain that car don't you?

 

eta-Your hypothetical engine will cost 325 points including the 50 points for the swap.

 

Going from memory but should be correct;

swap-50 pts

heads-100

cam-50

intake-25

carb/efi-25

rockers-50 (Crowd Control was smart in picking the Cobra in that it has factory rollers)

distributor-25


I'm not sure what is meant by saying I am partial toward Hondas, or a pre-emptive hammer drop on V8's? Late 80s - early 2000s Hondas are what I know best, that is certainly true. It is hard to tell on a forum, but if you are alleging that I have a bias or prejudice resulting in me giving advice to ChampCar that is inaccurate or biased in an effort for personal gain or out of some malicious plot against "V8s" it would not only be completely false, but I would take that as quite a nasty attack on my moral character. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bandit said:

 

rockers-50 (Crowd Control was smart in picking the Cobra in that it has factory rollers)

 

 

So how  much power do you think the Crowd Control mustanghas? It start at 325 pts, head+cam? and then 25pts for handling?

 

Or just a cam?

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


I'm not sure what is meant by saying I am partial toward Hondas, or a pre-emptive hammer drop on V8's? Late 80s - early 2000s Hondas are what I know best, that is certainly true. It is hard to tell on a forum, but if you are alleging that I have a bias or prejudice resulting in me giving advice to ChampCar that is inaccurate or biased in an effort for personal gain or out of some malicious plot against "V8s" it would not only be completely false, but I would take that as quite a nasty attack on my moral character. 

Well, when one starts off by claiming a particular engine swap that has done very well "isn't a good engine for Champcar" and then proceeds to seemingly advocate someone build a 7:1 PWR RX7 with a SBC, yes my BS radar gets a blip.

 

With examples of "management" advocating changes from free brakes, and then proceeding to build a completely custom setup for sale, to a board member calling for a complete revamping of the rules that would obviously favor his chosen car, yes it does seem there is a bit of an issue with prejudice in this series at times. 

 

If that is not the case here, then perhaps expanding on your position on both the K swap and the SBC would help alleviate any questions on your motivations. I may have the same opinions on both with things fleshed out a bit more. I'd like to think there is no prejudice towards certain makes and models, but there is precedent that shows otherwise. (Including Nissans, not just domestics) Hence, my questioning the motivations behind your posts. To say advocating for a SBC build is out of character is not a stretch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

So how  much power do you think the Crowd Control mustanghas? 

 It has ALL the power.

 

 

 

*Seriously, it doesn't win on horsepower alone and frankly doesn't seem to have that much under the hood compared to it's weight. It laps and runs well because it brakes and handles very well, not because it has an out of sight power to weight ratio.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

@enginerd will tell you that the oiling system isn't so good 🤣

I think with more experience and $$$ we could have avoided some of the failures... had to make a lot of garage-fab parts and maybe didn’t use some other parts (to stay under $2500 / 500 pts). And it is in there that we fell short of the mark. Yes, there are some inherent oiling issues, but there are also some $5000 kswap-kits  built by pros that are running in gridlife which seem to have corrected the oiling issues.

Proceed carefully. I think we have solved the problems... Road America will tell.

Edited by enginerd
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


Let's take a 1990 RX7 as an example:

let's use the same RX7 and use any sbc engine with a sub 200 hp rating, let's use whatever variant had the best cam and highest compression while staying under 200hp to keep the swap 50 points. Now go with an aftermarket head, aftermarket intake, and aftermarket carb; then go with rams horn headers at 0 points too.  I would think this would be 350 - 400 whp in Champ spec? This swapped car might now weigh 2650#? 

SBC swapped RX7 is now 7:1 PWR

With 20.5 gallons, you may need to short shift and hope for some yellows but this would be an absolute monster car. 

Trans swap would need to be done too.  Stock trans isn't gonna hold up to anything above 200hp (they are marginal for rotaries).  Rear end might need some attention too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bandit said:

Well, when one starts off by claiming a particular engine swap that has done very well "isn't a good engine for Champcar" and then proceeds to seemingly advocate someone build a 7:1 PWR RX7 with a SBC, yes my BS radar gets a blip.

 

With examples of "management" advocating changes from free brakes, and then proceeding to build a completely custom setup for sale, to a board member calling for a complete revamping of the rules that would obviously favor his chosen car, yes it does seem there is a bit of an issue with prejudice in this series at times. 

 

If that is not the case here, then perhaps expanding on your position on both the K swap and the SBC would help alleviate any questions on your motivations. I may have the same opinions on both with things fleshed out a bit more. I'd like to think there is no prejudice towards certain makes and models, but there is precedent that shows otherwise. (Including Nissans, not just domestics) Hence, my questioning the motivations behind your posts. To say advocating for a SBC build is out of character is not a stretch.

So, let me get this straight...

 

The Honda guy says don't use a k series engine because they haven't been terribly reliable and can't make easy power like a v8 (sounds like he is advocating for people to swap in v8s).

 

Then you tear him apart because he is biased towards hondas....

 

Also, iirc, he and Nate (the guy with the k24 swap that has had some successes) are friends and I believe Andrew has helped with the car.  In other words, he has experienced some of the pitfalls.

 

Furthermore, I am not sure, but I don't think Huggins was advocating any sort of brake rules.  Yes, he is attempting to provide a solution for e30s now that the rule has been relaxed somewhat (not sure if his solution would have been point free anyway with the old rules).

 

Lastly, I assume you are referring to Rich and his proposal to change champcar rules.  It was simply that, a proposal that was discussed amongst the membership.  Obviously it didn't happen.

 

People have opinions.  Just because they have some connection to Champcar doesn't mean that they can't express those opinions.

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

The Honda guy says don't use a k series engine because they haven't been terribly reliable and can't make easy power like a v8 (sounds like he is advocating for people to swap in v8s).

B's and K's

 

Looking through these lists it seems there are plenty of opportunities to build most any power level one would need for a 1800-2100 pound car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine

 

The CRX will take a 9:1 PWR swap right in the calc, aka Fudge Factory, with points left over. Or, assuming this is feasible as I don't know the details of the Honda engines, swap in a lower HP version then swap the head and whatever else to save points. It doesn't take a big increase in power to have a sizable effect on a light car so is it really a detriment that these particular engines don't gain 50HP with a cam swap?

 

Saying the Honda's are poor, results show otherwise, while implying a SBC swap is the easy button, so easy no one is doing it, reeks of gamesmanship. If not, explain further, which I asked for above.

Edited by Bandit
Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember Honda's are very fuel limited, the same as the Mustang GT you spoke of prior, so a lot more than the PWR:WGHT comes into play here.  Not every team can drive a CRX with 180whp(just a guess) consistently as this team does.  Same as a lot of teams can't drive a Cobra with the same power they have at the same level.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


B and K series Honda engines are very good for their size. I don't think they are particularly good for ChampCar though. A good judge of what kind of HP an engine can make after tuning and removing any sort of bottle neck an engine has is to look at the TQ. 

A 305 SBC from 1982 has 145hp and 240tq. Now, that is a good engine for this series. It would be quite easy to double the rated HP of that engine with only a few points. With a Honda engine that is completely impossible without forced induction. 

Specific output in terms of hp/CID and torque/cid shows that the '70s SBC and the '90s B series are at opposite ends of the perfomance envelope.

 

SBC 305 cid with 145 hp = 0.48 hp/cid

B18c1, 109 cid with 170 hp = 1.56 hp/cid; 3.25 times more hp per cube.

 

SBC 305 cid with 245 ft.lbs = 0.80 ft.lbs/cid

B18c1 109 with 128 ft.lb = 1.17 ft.lbs/cid; 1.47 times more torque per cube.

 

One of these engines is near the bottom of its development and will respond very well to bolt-ons; the other is near the top of its development and requires a fair bit of work to make more power. Not hard to figure out which is which. :)

Edited by mender
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Technical Advisory Committee
42 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So, let me get this straight...

 

The Honda guy says don't use a k series engine because they haven't been terribly reliable and can't make easy power like a v8 (sounds like he is advocating for people to swap in v8s).

 

Then you tear him apart because he is biased towards hondas....

 

Also, iirc, he and Nate (the guy with the k24 swap that has had some successes) are friends and I believe Andrew has helped with the car.  In other words, he has experienced some of the pitfalls.

 

Furthermore, I am not sure, but I don't think Huggins was advocating any sort of brake rules.  Yes, he is attempting to provide a solution for e30s now that the rule has been relaxed somewhat (not sure if his solution would have been point free anyway with the old rules).

 

Lastly, I assume you are referring to Rich and his proposal to change champcar rules.  It was simply that, a proposal that was discussed amongst the membership.  Obviously it didn't happen.

 

People have opinions.  Just because they have some connection to Champcar doesn't mean that they can't express those opinions.

 

 

I didn't say don't use it, I just said they are not particularly good. I think they are actually better than average, but when the title of the thread is "too good to be true?" I thought I would explain that a larger displacement engine is better for the same power. Probably for the same reason my choice for Champcar is D<B<K/H<J. 

Most of the problems Nate had are due to the swap and RWD application, none of the those problems would be had in a stock FWD car. 

You just can't make power as easily on a smaller displacement engine. If you are limited by displacement or cylinder count, the K series is great IMO

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said:

Remember Honda's are very fuel limited, the same as the Mustang GT you spoke of prior, so a lot more than the PWR:WGHT comes into play here.  Not every team can drive a CRX with 180whp(just a guess) consistently as this team does.  Same as a lot of teams can't drive a Cobra with the same power they have at the same level.

With the speed creep pretty much everything is fuel starved. It's just a matter of to what level. Even the tanker Altima couldn't make 2 hours when driven hard at Road America according to Slugworks Paul.

 

With the front runners going faster and faster the extra pitstop, or two, doesn't matter so much as the other guys on the pointy end are stopping short as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have searched a lot. It seems difficult to make 220whp from Domestic v6 engines without doing changing out cams, valvetrain and headwork.

 

The best swap so far using domestic v6s seems to be the S197 4.0 v6 (2005-2010). It's rated at 210hp can seem to be able to do 205-210whp with bolt ons. 

 

The more modern V6s from Ford and GM seems great but they are rated to high to be able to use.

 

Maybe I am just terrible at googling because I have zero experience with any of these engines.

Edited by turbogrill
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...