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E36 compact same as E36 for swaps?


turbogrill
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My interpretation:

 

The 318ti (E36/5, E36 compact) isn't truly the same E36 platform, as it can't be "platform swapped" since the rear suspension is totally different (E30 based) and incompatible. Also, since it is now it's own line item on the VPI list, any swap math should be relative to the 350 point VPI.

 

Unfortunately, the swap calculator has not been updated with the E36/5 selection, and the math is based on the higher "standard" E36 numbers from the past several years.

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10 minutes ago, collinskl1 said:

My interpretation:

 

The 318ti (E36/5, E36 compact) isn't truly the same E36 platform, as it can't be "platform swapped" since the rear suspension is totally different (E30 based) and incompatible. Also, since it is now it's own line item on the VPI list, any swap math should be relative to the 350 point VPI.

 

Unfortunately, the swap calculator has not been updated with the E36/5 selection, and the math is based on the higher "standard" E36 numbers from the past several years.

 

Got it! That makes sense. I was confused about the swap calculator.

 

I agree a platform swap would be very strange.

 

Curious what the swap weight would be, it has a curbweight of 2590 - 2844. The regular E36 has 2899-3075

 

So maybe a 2500 swap weight? Curious if you could swap in a 180-190hp M52/M54 engine without blowing the swap calcuator.

 

How are swap weights determined? Based out of curb weight?

 

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So, it has the same fuel capacity as a regular e36.  It is lower weight.

 

In other words, why wouldn't it use the same value as the standard spec e36?

 

We all know that the e30 Rear end is maybe not as good, but that Rear end has won a metric poop ton of champcar races (so it c ant be that bad.)

 

I will say that I don't think it should necessarily use the m52b28 e36 value.  (Which is apparently what it uses when swapping an e36.)

 

My thoughts are that it COULD be eligible for the platform swap rule and therefore just use the value of whatever engine you are swapping in.

 

Finally, the standard e36 has a 4 cylinder option on the vpi.  It also starts at 350 pts for the same model year.  If you were to swap an engine into that e36, it would be the same (high) value of 535 pts.

 

Confused?  Me too a little...

 

I would think that this should end up at whatever a standard e36 value is with the chosen engine in it.  For example, if you chose a m52b25, it should be a 450 pt car.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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The 318ti has a smaller fuel tank than the other E36 cars, and I know it is a unique geometry so it isn't swappable.

 

To me, the question is whether or not the E36/5 318ti meets the intent of the rule for platform swaps or not with the rear suspension and other differences.

 

If it does, why does it need its own line on the VPI chart now? If it is platform swappable or should use the highest platform VPI for a swap, it should have remained bundled on the E36 (M44B19) line of the VPI table with the "regular" E36 coupe and sedan 318i cars.

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9 minutes ago, collinskl1 said:

The 318ti has a smaller fuel tank than the other E36 cars, and I know it is a unique geometry so it isn't swappable.

 

To me, the question is whether or not the E36/5 318ti meets the intent of the rule for platform swaps or not with the rear suspension and other differences.

 

If it does, why does it need its own line on the VPI chart now? If it is platform swappable or should use the highest platform VPI for a swap, it should have remained bundled on the E36 (M44B19) line of the VPI table with the "regular" E36 coupe and sedan 318i cars.

Care to share where you found the fuel capacity size?  

 

Edmunds says it's the same at 17.2.

 

Also, all of the e36 have separate lines for each engine.

 

Edit:  just found conflicting results.  Looks like it may have a 14.53 gallon tank?  And now found a site saying 13.7...  wowzers.

 

 

My opinion after digging further into this is that I would like to see the TAC look into this.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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Well, I used Edmunds haha... I also have one that won't take 3 full gallon jugs from bone dry (including the filler neck) so it seems to jive.

 

(all manual transmission)

1996 318ti - 13.7 gal

1996 318is - 16.4 gal

1996 328is - 16.4 gal

 

Automobile-catalog.com lists the following (all manual transmission)

 

1996 318ti - 13.7 gal, weight: 2679 lbs

1996 318is - 17.2 gal, weight: 2976 lbs

1996 328is - 17.2 gal, weight: 2910 lbs

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48 minutes ago, collinskl1 said:

The 318ti has a smaller fuel tank than the other E36 cars, and I know it is a unique geometry so it isn't swappable.

 

To me, the question is whether or not the E36/5 318ti meets the intent of the rule for platform swaps or not with the rear suspension and other differences.

 

If it does, why does it need its own line on the VPI chart now? If it is platform swappable or should use the highest platform VPI for a swap, it should have remained bundled on the E36 (M44B19) line of the VPI table with the "regular" E36 coupe and sedan 318i cars.

 

This is the same argument for the 944. I believe both had more than enough drastic differences (suspension, full subframe, fuel tanks, wheel offset, vastly different hubs......) to make them different platforms in the champcar sense, even if the manufactures did not differentiate them as different platforms. I know that at least 1 other CCES member has made this argument for the 318ti as well (if the 944 gets the platform break, then the 318ti should even get it even more so) 

 

in that same vein, its like the e30/e36/e46 m3. if the m3 was added to the VPI for each platform, would all non m3s have to use the m3 starting value in a swap? can you imagine the outrage to that (and justified IMO) for the e30 guys? all the m3s would all be over 500pts to start.

 

EDIT: from what i have seen, CCES said all e36 are the same platform. but that was from a year or 2 ago at this point. think a petition to the BOD might have a little more success if submitted this year.

Edited by chbright
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5 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Oh...stuttgart is Porsche. Well they could simplify their 911 models as well.

 

Stuttgart is Daimler, Zuffenhausen which is a suburb of Stuttgart is Porsche. Been to both museums, the Porsche museum is good, but the Daimler is awesome, probably the best museum I have been to.

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Back when I was interested in doing a turbo 318 the BMW guys all said that Real OEM was the gold standard for understanding what parts were standard on various cars. According to Real OEM the 318 compact fuel tank is 60L 15.9 gallons, the 318i is 62L 16.4 gallons, and the 325 is 65L 17.2 gallons.

 

With the 318is down to 350 points it would just barely be doable. 100 turbo, 25 charge air cooler, 20 oil cooler, and 5 for a bigger radiator. No points left for aero, but everything else is free nowadays and there is a lot of knowledge out there on how to get your geometry where it needs to be from back when E36’s were 500 point cars.

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From 4.6.1 under Platform Swap:

"To qualify as a platform swap, all of the differing vehicle components must be swapped to match the new platform. This includes engine, transmission, differential, suspension, fuel tank, etc."

 

The 318ti will accept the engine and trans from a coupe or sedan E36, but the differential, suspension, and fuel tank will not swap in. The back half of the car is entirely different from the coupe and sedan cars. I suppose and argument could be made for platform swapping a Z3 (E36/7) and 318ti though, as they share the same E30-like rear chassis and have a 13.5 gallon fuel capacity, but were offered with the 6 cyl engine.

Edited by collinskl1
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2 hours ago, mhr650 said:

Back when I was interested in doing a turbo 318 the BMW guys all said that Real OEM was the gold standard for understanding what parts were standard on various cars. According to Real OEM the 318 compact fuel tank is 60L 15.9 gallons, the 318i is 62L 16.4 gallons, and the 325 is 65L 17.2 gallons.

 

I found a little different realOEM data, but you are close.

 

The Z3's had 50L, the Ti had 60L, for the coupe/seadan/vert the OBDI had 62L and the OBDII had 65L

 

Edited by ABR-Glen
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I had a discussion with Mike Chisek about this scenario a few years ago when trying to understand the platform swap stuff better, and he would definitely not allow a 318Ti to swap starting at it's base VPI, but times change, so you never know what the interpretation would be today (unfortunately).

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1 minute ago, ABR-Glen said:

I had a discussion with Mike Chisek about this scenario a few years ago when trying to understand the platform swap stuff better, and he would definitely not allow a 318Ti to swap starting at it's base VPI, but times change, so you never know what the interpretation would be today (unfortunately).

 

In that case it should be eligible for the platform swap? Has to be one or the other right?

 

 

2 hours ago, mhr650 said:

Back when I was interested in doing a turbo 318 the BMW guys all said that Real OEM was the gold standard for understanding what parts were standard on various cars. According to Real OEM the 318 compact fuel tank is 60L 15.9 gallons, the 318i is 62L 16.4 gallons, and the 325 is 65L 17.2 gallons.

 

With the 318is down to 350 points it would just barely be doable. 100 turbo, 25 charge air cooler, 20 oil cooler, and 5 for a bigger radiator. No points left for aero, but everything else is free nowadays and there is a lot of knowledge out there on how to get your geometry where it needs to be from back when E36’s were 500 point cars.

 

Why not turbo a M40/M42/M44 E36? They are 300-350pts

 

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28 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

In that case it should be eligible for the platform swap? Has to be one or the other right?

 

I was asking about using a non-E36 platform engine, so can't say for sure. 

 

Platform swap is still a little squishy IMO, because it "allows" you to take the value from a different version of the same platform if you swap all the stuff, but if you only swap some of it...?

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

In that case it should be eligible for the platform swap? Has to be one or the other right?

 

 

 

Why not turbo a M40/M42/M44 E36? They are 300-350pts

 

 

 

That’s what I was interested in doing, the M42 is the version that you would want to turbo, but back then the E36 318 was 400 points and not an option.

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2 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

I was asking about using a non-E36 platform engine, so can't say for sure. 

 

Platform swap is still a little squishy IMO, because it "allows" you to take the value from a different version of the same platform if you swap all the stuff, but if you only swap some of it...?

Wrong. You must swap everything to be consistent with the new claimed model. Platform swap rule is basically saying “we won’t check the VIN, but aside from the VIN, everything on your car must match the model you claim it to be”.

If you only swap a few things over then you pay for each non-OE part.

Edited by enginerd
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2 hours ago, enginerd said:

Wrong. You must swap everything to be consistent with the new claimed model. Platform swap rule is basically saying “we won’t check the VIN, but aside from the VIN, everything on your car must match the model you claim it to be”.

If you only swap a few things over then you pay for each non-OE part.

If it was that cut and dried, why would we need a platform swap rule at all?

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