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E36 compact same as E36 for swaps?


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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

Yes, but if it's a 150 point car it's one of two things 1.) very undervalued or, 2.) needs a lot of help to be a competitive car. 

I wouldn't start with a 150 point car just so I can have the points to put 135 points on it for front suspension, lol. 

 

 

150 boy you guys are splurging, I start with 100 and use every one of the points left. 

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12 hours ago, Snorman said:

Build your Monza. You can do that Speedway universal front setup for ~150 points (with the required coilovers) so you'll be at 300 points with a whole 200 points left to figure out how to make a 130 hp Vega run sub :45's at Road America. 🤔

It's easier to consider a Monza as a smaller version of a 3rd Gen F-body but lighter, bigger fuel tank, and a SLA front suspension instead of struts. Lots of potential. :)

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16 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Right, read it many times and I don't think it has changed.  Added matching wheelbase and floorpan requirements are NOT in the rule and just recently made up depending on what kind of car it is for.

 

Saying it is perfectly fine to vertically section one car (altering both wheelbase and floorpan) while another must meet stock wheelbase and floorpan dimensions is just the usual bias depending on what car you are talking about in a rulebook that is supposedly applied equally to all cars.  Makes perfect sense to someone.

 

To clarify what we are suggesting is that on one car

  • Car was cut, sectioned and re welded together reusing all material from the original car
  • All of the sheetmetal in the chassis (unibody car so floorpan is part of this) was present in the original car or removed

On the other car 

  • Fenders from a bigger car are cut and resized to fit on another chassis
  • Claimed "car model" and actual chassis presented have clear structural and shape differences that were not present in the claimed model, and were not created through removal. 

We never said your car has to have the stock wheelbase. My new car will not. We are saying you have to use all of the thunderbird material to make the car (or take points), and if the thunderbird and mustang chassis are in fact different what you claim as a thunderbird must be capable of being made in your method with thunderbird parts (or claimed in points).  In the end it isn't TAC or the forum you need to appease, or even tech during yearly inspection, it is post race that inquiries you need to be able to address. 

 

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15 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

I will let you know when I am going to show up to a race and you can fly out with your tape measure, micrometer, and blue prints from Ford.  What’s next, do I have to drive through a profile template and be within 1/8” everywhere then go park next to the legal Parts Badger Miata?  Hahaha.  

 

Looks like you and Drew better get working on that wheelbase petition - or make up more stuff not in the rules.  

 

I think it is easy to forget the real enforcement of the series is post race tech. People on the forum, TAC, even Tech are here to guide and help you through the inspection process so you have a happy post race tech. Also sort of lost is the fact that TAC isn't the police, or even the judges. We just advise both sides (racers and BOD\Tech) from a safe distance, and generally are trying to help the rest of the racers here. 

 

You could hang your t bird body on a ford fiesta if you want, and roll through your yearly inspection during a foggy day and claim it as a cut up t bird. Tech might miss this in your yearly inspection, but that still doesn't make it legal. It is your obligation to fill out the claim properly, not tech's responsibility to catch it all (they are there to help and do safety) What we are trying to help you avoid is post race pitchfork pictures and evidence from your competitors proving what you race could not be made using a t bird alone, and the pending arguments that will happen over disqualification or not. 

 

FWIW parts badger has sparked tons of debate on their build, even down to the level of how much material cost their roof change would be, and if they can reuse lexan the size of the OE opening. Not too long ago we had someone claim material reuse to cut the spare tire well out and cover it with flat sheetmetal, which lead to a large debate on how much they need to prove the material was reused (paint, pictures, whatever ray decides you need to show). Given that context, we are simply trying to suggest that you will have an uphill battle and if questioning and treatment of the teams you are comparing to is indication of how things will go for you, you might want to have the ducks in a row if you make the claim mustang unibody chassis is totally equal and interchangeable with t bird....

Edited by Black Magic
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On 2/16/2021 at 8:53 AM, Black Magic said:

 

Knowing what it takes at work to hang roof, rear quarters and a tail on a car........Remember it needs to match down to the floorplan shape......

 

If we are slapping some t bird fenders on and ignoring the actual chassis differences....maybe feasible but easily arguable as not the same performance (weight, compliance, profile and others)

 

Still waiting for you to show me where the floorpan rule exists in the BCCR and why the rule applies to my finished product but not yours.  If it isn't in the BCCR I'm looking forward to seeing that wording along with a wheelbase requirement in a petition from you and enginerd.  As well, where does one source blueprints for floorpans?

Edited by Ron_e
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4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Still waiting for you to show me where the floorpan rule exists in the BCCR and why the rule applies to my finished product but not yours.  If it isn't in the BCCR I'm looking forward to seeing that wording along with a wheelbase requirement in a petition from you and enginerd.  As well, where does one source blueprints for floorpans?

 

I feel like this question is rhetorical, but incase it isn't.....

 

BCCR 4.7.2 

 

• Materials from your vehicle are permitted to 
be repurposed into other items for zero points, 
provided teams retain documented evidence of the process

 

I am suggesting that when the post race mob looks in your car, they will easily find elements in the chassis that clearly look different from a t bird, and which you are not capable of showing documentation showing how you reworked (or could have reworked) the t bird into that shape. In the age of the internet, I think a google image search would be enough raise concerns. The floorpan isn't an element you can alter (beside material removal, although floorpans might be a required safety element) without paying points to my knowledge, unless you can prove 4.7.2 (the post amp wheel well gate response)

 

On my shortened car I have pictures to account for every inch of material I reused, and I am claiming material cost for anything else I couldn't (in my case none, welding wire spanned the gap). Anyone trying to compare it to a stock car will only see differences by material removal and moving material that my pics show. The rules apply the same to both of us, the effort and homework change the outcome. 

 

In the end your battle will be with tech and your competitors in post race, assuming the car podiums or wins a class. We are just trying to help you understand what we have seen asked and done regarding "paper claims" of material reuse, and what the series temperature seems to be on it. Proceed at your own risk.

 

 

Edited by Black Magic
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33 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I feel like this question is rhetorical, but incase it isn't.....

 

BCCR 4.7.2 

 

• Materials from your vehicle are permitted to 
be repurposed into other items for zero points, 
provided teams retain documented evidence of the process

 

I am suggesting that when the post race mob looks in your car, they will easily find elements in the chassis that clearly look different from a t bird, and which you are not capable of showing documentation showing how you reworked (or could have reworked) the t bird into that shape. In the age of the internet, I think a google image search would be enough raise concerns. The floorpan isn't an element you can alter (beside material removal, although floorpans might be a required safety element) without paying points to my knowledge, unless you can prove 4.7.2 (the post amp wheel well gate response)

 

On my shortened car I have pictures to account for every inch of material I reused, and I am claiming material cost for anything else I couldn't (in my case none, welding wire spanned the gap). Anyone trying to compare it to a stock car will only see differences by material removal and moving material that my pics show. The rules apply the same to both of us, the effort and homework change the outcome. 

 

In the end your battle will be with tech and your competitors in post race, assuming the car podiums or wins a class. We are just trying to help you understand what we have seen asked and done regarding "paper claims" of material reuse, and what the series temperature seems to be on it. Proceed at your own risk.

 

 

 

I’m good.  Clearly you are not familiar with the Fox platform.  

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On 2/13/2021 at 10:34 AM, Chris Huggins said:

 

This is the whole point of the platform swap rule.

 

 


Last year I submitted documentation for it to get its on line item in the VPI list, which it did.

That does not exclude it from the "highest value rule" however (see how e30 has a line item for each engine).

 

The TAC as very recently discussed the e36 compact.   I don't remember why it came up - maybe it was just one of our general conversations.

This was my opinion in that conversation:  (It should be noted that this was NOT a consensus belief among the tac)

Unfortunately, if the 318ti was made "swap eligible" it would immediately become an over-dog.  It would be the only "modern" BMW with a VPI low enough to allow Engine+trans swap or Engine swap + mods (or aero).  In that regard, it would be an E30 with slightly less fuel but with points to spare.

Its already a pretty rare car (compared to E30 or normal E36 or z3) - it didn't sell well and many were stripped for parts for E30 5-lug swaps.  It wouldn't make sense to intentionally allow this to happen.

 

If the TI was allowed to swap using its current value (assuming unchanged SPV) it would be able to swap a M52 and be at 400 points.  It could actually swap up to 229 HP (so a m54B30) and be at or under 500 points.

The SPV would need to be revised down to 2301 to limit the swap to a M50 (189 hp) and put the car at 500 points. 

 

The last time this was brought up the decision was made that it was working as intended.  

 

You have a few more days left to submit a petition on it if you so wish.  


This seems like a logical thought process to me, thanks for sharing. 
 

My interpretation is that the 318ti is NOT capable of platform swapping to the 6 cylinder BMW engines since the rear chassis components are incompatible. Is that line of thinking incorrect, and a team could platform swap the engine, use a fuel cell that’s 2 gal over the e36 coupe capacity, and leave the rear suspension as 318ti stuff? 
 

If not, I would propose that the “swap weight” for the 318ti be adjusted such that it ends up at the same VPI after swapping as those e36 factory offerings.

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9 hours ago, collinskl1 said:

 

If not, I would propose that the “swap weight” for the 318ti be adjusted such that it ends up at the same VPI after swapping as those e36 factory offerings.

 

Shouldn't it be slight less since a 168hp 318ti is worse than a 168hp E36

 

So maybe a 168hp 318ti is 430pts instead of 450pts as the 168hp E36 (Numbers might be slightly off but you get the idea)

 

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11 hours ago, collinskl1 said:


This seems like a logical thought process to me, thanks for sharing. 
 

My interpretation is that the 318ti is NOT capable of platform swapping to the 6 cylinder BMW engines since the rear chassis components are incompatible. Is that line of thinking incorrect, and a team could platform swap the engine, use a fuel cell that’s 2 gal over the e36 coupe capacity, and leave the rear suspension as 318ti stuff? 
 

If not, I would propose that the “swap weight” for the 318ti be adjusted such that it ends up at the same VPI after swapping as those e36 factory offerings.

*I certainly do NOT speak for the remainder of the BOD or TAC with this statement, so feel free to be upset with me if you disagree.*

 

 

 

As of right now, my understanding is that the 318ti is not able to swap using its 350 base vpi.  If you go to the swap calculator, you will only see an entry for E36, which it is (technically) the E36/5

 

But wait, you say, the Z3 has its own line.  Its the E36/7!  It actually gets a worse penalty than the 318ti since it starts at 500 points instead of 485.  This used to be equal until the e36 m52 took a point reduction. 

 

 

Unfortunately the swap weight (SPV) adjustment only works to a point. 

 

I made a swap calculator formula in excel to experiment:

 

VPI 350
SPV 2797
New HP 190
Value Add 50.14004449
Calculated Value 400.1400445
Current TI Value 535

 

The formula in "Value Add" is =IF(16-(B2/B3)>0,(0.032*(16-(B2/B3))^6)+50,50)

The formula in "calculated value" is =B1+B4

 

Now you can play along at home.

 

Hypothetically, if the 318ti was allowed to start at 350, and its SPV was adjusted as mentioned to 2301, lets take a few guesses:

 

Here it is with the 189hp M50B25.  I *Think* the online calculator rounds down at 500.4999 so this would be a 500 point car with this value.

350
2301
189
150.2787558

500.2787558

 

However, we don't have to use that engine, and we cant really restrict what engines teams use further with the tools in place.  Are there any unicorns or better swaps that could be developed?

 

How about a M54B25?

350
2301
184
108.2785688

458.2785688

Now that car gets 40 points to add Aero or Mods. 

 

What about something outside the box?  LE5 Ecotec anyone?  They can make good power.

350
2301
169
55.8838288
405.8838288

 

94 points to play with on that swap.  Thats enough for a trans, diff, and aero.


 

 

Anyway, The short way of saying it is that it has the potential to be a damn good swap platform.  It seems simple on the surface to just allow the TI to use the E36 parts, but within the ecosphere of our rules it gets complex quickly.  

 

At the risk of upsetting a few TI owners, I think the rule is working as intended.  The potential risk of upsetting a wider audience of teams by allowing an "exception" to the current rules to create a swap platform which could break the balance is not a risk I think we should take at this time.

 

This situation is a result of the "must swap from highest model" rule, which also punishes many other platforms (integras and civics to name a few) which would otherwise be very good starting points for K or B swaps.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris Huggins said:

*I certainly do NOT speak for the remainder of the BOD or TAC with this statement, so feel free to be upset with me if you disagree.*

 

 

 

As of right now, my understanding is that the 318ti is not able to swap using its 350 base vpi.  If you go to the swap calculator, you will only see an entry for E36, which it is (technically) the E36/5

 

But wait, you say, the Z3 has its own line.  Its the E36/7!  It actually gets a worse penalty than the 318ti since it starts at 500 points instead of 485.  This used to be equal until the e36 m52 took a point reduction. 

 

 

Unfortunately the swap weight (SPV) adjustment only works to a point. 

 

I made a swap calculator formula in excel to experiment:

 

 

VPI 350
SPV 2797
New HP 190
Value Add 50.14004449
Calculated Value 400.1400445
Current TI Value 535

 

The formula in "Value Add" is =IF(16-(B2/B3)>0,(0.032*(16-(B2/B3))^6)+50,50)

The formula in "calculated value" is =B1+B4

 

Now you can play along at home.

 

Hypothetically, if the 318ti was allowed to start at 350, and its SPV was adjusted as mentioned to 2301, lets take a few guesses:

 

Here it is with the 189hp M50B25.  I *Think* the online calculator rounds down at 500.4999 so this would be a 500 point car with this value.

 

350
2301
189
150.2787558

500.2787558

 

However, we don't have to use that engine, and we cant really restrict what engines teams use further with the tools in place.  Are there any unicorns or better swaps that could be developed?

 

How about a M54B25?

 

350
2301
184
108.2785688

458.2785688

Now that car gets 40 points to add Aero or Mods. 

 

What about something outside the box?  LE5 Ecotec anyone?  They can make good power.

 

350
2301
169
55.8838288
405.8838288

 

94 points to play with on that swap.  Thats enough for a trans, diff, and aero.


 

 

Anyway, The short way of saying it is that it has the potential to be a damn good swap platform.  It seems simple on the surface to just allow the TI to use the E36 parts, but within the ecosphere of our rules it gets complex quickly.  

 

At the risk of upsetting a few TI owners, I think the rule is working as intended.  The potential risk of upsetting a wider audience of teams by allowing an "exception" to the current rules to create a swap platform which could break the balance is not a risk I think we should take at this time.

 

This situation is a result of the "must swap from highest model" rule, which also punishes many other platforms (integras and civics to name a few) which would otherwise be very good starting points for K or B swaps.

 

 

 

 

So with a 2307 swap weight:

 

- 318ti @ 169hp (M52B25), 405 pts: close to NC Miata at 400pts and 167 hp

- 318ti @ 169hp (M52B25), 405 pts: lower than E36 at 450pts and 169 hp

- 318ti @ 189hp (M54B25), 495 pts: higher than E36 328i at 485 pts and 190hp.  

 

The 169hp swap might be sense since you get more points to play with than the E36 325i but you have smaller tank.

The 189hp swap is probably not worth it since you could as well start with a 328i and have more points to play with.

 

You can also swap in a K24A8, for 168hp. They make BMW adapters, wonder if you get a gazillion HP with just a header like the K24A2.

 

edit:

https://www.kmodperformance.com/products/kmod-vtec-killer-conversion-kit

40whp with cam only on the ~160hp K engine, curious if you need to pay 50pts for valve train as well.

 

Edited by turbogrill
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2 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

*I certainly do NOT speak for the remainder of the BOD or TAC with this statement, so feel free to be upset with me if you disagree.*

 

 

 

As of right now, my understanding is that the 318ti is not able to swap using its 350 base vpi.  If you go to the swap calculator, you will only see an entry for E36, which it is (technically) the E36/5

 

But wait, you say, the Z3 has its own line.  Its the E36/7!  It actually gets a worse penalty than the 318ti since it starts at 500 points instead of 485.  This used to be equal until the e36 m52 took a point reduction. 

 

 

Unfortunately the swap weight (SPV) adjustment only works to a point. 

 

I made a swap calculator formula in excel to experiment:

 

 

VPI 350
SPV 2797
New HP 190
Value Add 50.14004449
Calculated Value 400.1400445
Current TI Value 535

 

The formula in "Value Add" is =IF(16-(B2/B3)>0,(0.032*(16-(B2/B3))^6)+50,50)

The formula in "calculated value" is =B1+B4

 

Now you can play along at home.

 

Hypothetically, if the 318ti was allowed to start at 350, and its SPV was adjusted as mentioned to 2301, lets take a few guesses:

 

Here it is with the 189hp M50B25.  I *Think* the online calculator rounds down at 500.4999 so this would be a 500 point car with this value.

 

350
2301
189
150.2787558

500.2787558

 

However, we don't have to use that engine, and we cant really restrict what engines teams use further with the tools in place.  Are there any unicorns or better swaps that could be developed?

 

How about a M54B25?

 

350
2301
184
108.2785688

458.2785688

Now that car gets 40 points to add Aero or Mods. 

 

What about something outside the box?  LE5 Ecotec anyone?  They can make good power.

 

350
2301
169
55.8838288
405.8838288

 

94 points to play with on that swap.  Thats enough for a trans, diff, and aero.


 

 

Anyway, The short way of saying it is that it has the potential to be a damn good swap platform.  It seems simple on the surface to just allow the TI to use the E36 parts, but within the ecosphere of our rules it gets complex quickly.  

 

At the risk of upsetting a few TI owners, I think the rule is working as intended.  The potential risk of upsetting a wider audience of teams by allowing an "exception" to the current rules to create a swap platform which could break the balance is not a risk I think we should take at this time.

 

This situation is a result of the "must swap from highest model" rule, which also punishes many other platforms (integras and civics to name a few) which would otherwise be very good starting points for K or B swaps.

If I didn’t know better I would say it looks silly to have a desired final point value in mind for a car + engine combo and then fudge numbers in a calculator until it spits out something close to what was desired. One might look at that and say it would be better to eliminate the formula and simply assign that post-swap value for a given car + engine combo. 

Edited by enginerd
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12 minutes ago, enginerd said:

If I didn’t know better I would say it looks silly to have a desired final point value in mind for a car + engine combo and then fudge numbers in a calculator until it spits out something close to what was desired. One might look at that and say it would be better to eliminate the formula and simply assign that post-swap value for a given car + engine combo. 

Or just adjust the VPI if deemed necessary. Dropping the E30 ten points (iirc) would have allowed the swap the car's weight was adjusted upward, to a ridiculous number, to allow. 

 

The swap calc has been ruined with these "adjustments". It's just used as an undercover way to adjust performance of particular cars now and that is not what it was put in for. From an unbiased, weights based on published numbers performance limiter to a bunch of fudged numbers changed on a whim with no notice.

 

Exactly what it was designed to prevent.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, enginerd said:

If I didn’t know better I would say it looks silly to have a desired final point value in mind for a car + engine combo and then fudge numbers in a calculator until it spits out something close to what was desired. One might look at that and say it would be better to eliminate the formula and simply assign that post-swap value for a given car + engine combo. 

That is how this mess all got started as explained to me by staff.  They wanted to allow certain popular combos to be able to remain at certain values, so weight just be came a moving value.  Even though it was never truly presented that way publicly to the membership.  That's why in the beginning of all of this I was a big proponent of getting as raced weights at tracks with scales and finding a nice median weight to assign.

 

I completely agree with you that maybe just assigning an overall value to certain swaps might make more sense, but that again opens up having to collect actual data and look at results and figure in different variables.  Not an easy task by any means.

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2 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

So with a 2307 swap weight:

 

- 318ti @ 169hp (M52B25), 405 pts: close to NC Miata at 400pts and 167 hp

- 318ti @ 169hp (M52B25), 405 pts: lower than E36 at 450pts and 169 hp

- 318ti @ 189hp (M54B25), 495 pts: higher than E36 328i at 485 pts and 190hp.  

 

The 169hp swap might be sense since you get more points to play with than the E36 325i but you have smaller tank.

The 189hp swap is probably not worth it since you could as well start with a 328i and have more points to play with.

 

You can also swap in a K24A8, for 168hp. They make BMW adapters, wonder if you get a gazillion HP with just a header like the K24A2.

 

edit:

https://www.kmodperformance.com/products/kmod-vtec-killer-conversion-kit

40whp with cam only on the ~160hp K engine, curious if you need to pay 50pts for valve train as well.

 

 

IIRC, most vtec killer kits switch out the intake rockers, right? they may swap the intakes with a different oem rocker, but that means points.  now there are some folks that pinned the rockers so that vtech is always on. as its not part of the adjustment or stock parts I would venture its points, but pins are "hardware" so sticky spot indeed. would like the resident honda TAC guy to maybe weigh in on vtech killer valvetrains.

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51 minutes ago, enginerd said:

If I didn’t know better I would say it looks silly to have a desired final point value in mind for a car + engine combo and then fudge numbers in a calculator until it spits out something close to what was desired. One might look at that and say it would be better to eliminate the formula and simply assign that post-swap value for a given car + engine combo. 

 

It would be interesting to see how many times that exact petition has been submitted.

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9 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

It would be interesting to see how many times that exact petition has been submitted.

I haven’t even seen such a petition. I talked with Mike C when this was being developed and he said it would be a non-starter, formula was the route we were going with even if it was a complicated, roundabout way of setting swap combo values that roughly matched what the board would subjectively set them to.

So I have never submitted such a petition. 

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

I haven’t even seen such a petition. I talked with Mike C when this was being developed and he said it would be a non-starter, formula was the route we were going with even if it was a complicated, roundabout way of setting swap combo values that roughly matched what the board would subjectively set them to.

So I have never submitted such a petition. 

 

I know that Troy has submitted it, I think multiple times.

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Just now, mhr650 said:

I know that Troy has submitted it, I think multiple times.

He has submitted something(s) sorta similar... one version was a hybrid of the swap formula and a subjective addition of penalty laps to certain swapped cars regardless of what the TCV ended up being. It was not to ‘eliminate swap formula and replace with separate VPI table for swap combos’.

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I've definitely seen where somebody suggest a list of "car combos" of engine and car for a certain value.

 

Pretty sure it was troy and he even included a bunch of examples iirc. 

 

Not sure if it ever became a petition (this would have been 2 to 4 years ago). 

 

Edit:  Screen shot from 2018 talking about it1624841847_swaplist.PNG.2179e63649772f12adb33ffc7c080ffb.PNG

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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  • Technical Advisory Committee

The TAC has discussed this many times.  Its a legit potential option. 

 

The downside is that there are literally thousands of car/engine combos that would need to be valued, and those valuations are just as susceptible to being incorrect as the current ones (and the accusations of favoritism, manipulation, etc).  The man-hours needed to even start this are just immense.

 

No system is perfect, and there are always gonna be issues.  What we have now has resulted in some pretty close racing.  Last December my stock engine E30 passed a stock engine mustang on the last lap of a 7 hour race for 2nd place.  We both lost to a Miata.  An Integra finished 4rd, a Boxter 5th.  The very next weekend we had another podium of mixed cars, 944, Supra w/ swap, my stock engine E30, swapped mitsubishi, swapped rx7, corvette, miata, Sc300, MR2 w/ swap, its not until 10th/11th place you get even duplicate cars (Miata/E30).

 

 

 

 

 

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