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What happened to your ChampCar today 2021 ??


Ray Franck
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8 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I see lots of podiums for Miatas, they should all get a VPI increase as well, regardless of the swap weight. 

I think the NA data backs a review of the platform both in points & swap weight.  (politically I think the swap weight is easier to adjust) 

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46 minutes ago, Ben 595 said:

Only one team won last year with a 944 and it could only win 7 hour events.  (might have a fuel strategy advantage for the odd hour event)

Car generally doesn’t like running for more then 7hrs without breaking.  This is a great improvement, when we started 7 years ago the car lasted 1.5 hours.  Lol 😬

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4 hours ago, Ben 595 said:

I think the NA data backs a review of the platform both in points & swap weight.  (politically I think the swap weight is easier to adjust) 

How many of those were scored at the two Harris Hill races where the fields were 90% Miata and track members?  I haven't looked, but I believe the top 3 both days were all Miatas, which kind of skews the data a bit. 

 

*looked it up, it was top 5 both days.

Edited by hotchkis23
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40 minutes ago, Ben 595 said:

I think the NA data backs a review of the platform both in points & swap weight.  (politically I think the swap weight is easier to adjust) 

The most popular racecar in the world wins the second most races.  We need to lower the VPI to get back to statistical parity.

Edited by LuckyKid
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5 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The most popular racecar in the world wins the second most races.  We need to lower the VPI to get back to statistical parity.

But, but...it wins lots of races. And that's all that counts. So the Miata VPI should be increased. 😆

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14 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The most popular racecar in the world wins the second most races.  We need to lower the VPI to get back to statistical parity.

 

Last year I asked to adjust Aero points because of your car, my petition was shot down. 

 

Yall are impressive, and I think the rules need to be shifted because of your achievements. 

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7 minutes ago, Ben 595 said:

 

Last year I asked to adjust Aero points because of your car, my petition was shot down. 

 

Yall are impressive, and I think the rules need to be shifted because of your achievements. 

Because of one car the values/rules need to be changed? 

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4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Because of one car the values/rules need to be changed? 

Yes (I THINK) rear wing value needs to be adjusted.  10 points is too low. 

 

I have never believed aero matters at our speeds till... one car proved me wrong.

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5 minutes ago, Ben 595 said:

Yes (I THINK) rear wing value needs to be adjusted.  10 points is too low. 

 

I have never believed aero matters at our speeds till... one car proved me wrong.

Damn Wing!  It couldn't be the splitter, splitter ramps, flat floor, diffuser, side skirts, fast back, dove tail, mini splitter, hood venting and ducting, fender venting, mini rear splitters, rear tire spats, or former indy lights drivers.   Ban the Wing!     

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1 hour ago, Cam Benty said:

Since 17 how many races has your 300 won? How many points were you assessed? I will not argue for this series the 300 is the car to have. And your team is fantastic bunch of drivers. Since 17 there has been parts reduced to zero points, the biggest help is brakes. This does not help the have nots. Correct me if I am mistaken your 300 has anti lock braking system. 
 

Why is it when the 300, E30, Miata or 944 win it is the drivers, preparation and race strategy yet when others win it is the car? C.C. Team have outstanding drivers, preparation and strategy to get that car on the podium being crippled with its fuel capacity. Your team is also the tip of the sword. You do not see this as a bit askew? 
 

 

 

All fair questions.  We have won 2 races in our 300 since the points change in 17, several bridesmaid finishes other than those wins.  Other than the 100 points in 2017 no points have been assessed, the series management has determined the SC300 to be the "gold standard 500 point car" to compare all to, although I disagree.  There has been no changes on brakes on our car since 2016, so the brakes being free had no benefit to our car.  Yes, ABS came on this car and is one of the advantages of the platform.  Not sure I understand your "have nots" comment, that is exactly who benefited.

 

I think one thing that appeals to the SC type car, at least it did for me, is you strip it, put the safety stuff in, do some minor suspension tweaks and you go racing competitively.  It's like the easy button.  But, as things evolve the SC will be and is being distanced with the changes that have come along such as go fast parts for those that can spare the points, newer high hp cars coming in to the series, etc.

 

What's askew? Seems like things are working pretty well from a balance of all of those aspects to me.  That car (C.C.) has us on power, we have them on fuel capacity and maybe a very slight edge on handling.  It's hard to quantify drivers, the top teams all have good drivers and all scheme pretty well, so in my opinion that's a non factor.  The C.C. mustang has beaten us every time we go up against it, so its hard for me to feel too sorry for them on any limitations it might have.  And regardless of whether someone may agree/disagree/think it's unfair I think you will see that car just as fast this year in spite of the points increase it received, just because that's the way those guys work, they won't let it.  I am not defending that decision on points, I am just saying it will be overcome.

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25 minutes ago, Burningham said:

 

All fair questions.  We have won 2 races in our 300 since the points change in 17, several bridesmaid finishes other than those wins.  Other than the 100 points in 2017 no points have been assessed, the series management has determined the SC300 to be the "gold standard 500 point car" to compare all to, although I disagree.  There has been no changes on brakes on our car since 2016, so the brakes being free had no benefit to our car.  Yes, ABS came on this car and is one of the advantages of the platform.  Not sure I understand your "have nots" comment, that is exactly who benefited. A fair rebuttal. Since 17 how many TEAMS have won with the 300? ONE team has won with the 95 Cobra. Interesting that the “Gold standard” is the 300. Does this mean if the 300 finishes behind an E30, does the E30 receive points? Miata? 944?  Or just a Mustang? 

 

I think one thing that appeals to the SC type car, at least it did for me, is you strip it, put the safety stuff in, do some minor suspension tweaks and you go racing competitively.  It's like the easy button.  But, as things evolve the SC will be and is being distanced with the changes that have come along such as go fast parts for those that can spare the points, newer high hp cars coming in to the series, etc.  We agree with that. At Daytona the Altima walked the Cobra. From a lap down. And the Cobra gets 25 points. Granted the Altima did receive 15 points before the race. And it was wet. Is 15 points enough? 20 gallons of fuel to 15 for the Cobra. 260hp for the Altima and 240 for the Cobra. The Altima also has less weight. How is this justified? 

 

What's askew? Seems like things are working pretty well from a balance of all of those aspects to me.   That car (C.C.) has us on power, we have them on fuel capacity and maybe a very slight edge on handling.  It's hard to quantify drivers, the top teams all have good drivers and all scheme pretty well, so in my opinion that's a non factor.  The C.C. mustang has beaten us every time we go up against it, so its hard for me to feel too sorry for them on any limitations it might have.  And regardless of whether someone may agree/disagree/think it's unfair I think you will see that car just as fast this year in spite of the points increase it received, just because that's the way those guys work, they won't let it.  I am not defending that decision on points, I am just saying it will be overcome. I respect your opinion. Regardless it is still B.S. Drivers and teams are completely relevant. That is why we do this.  So if the cobra still wins more points will be assessed? And when will points be assessed to other makes when the finish ahead of the 300? 

 

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Interesting question and rebuttal. 

 

If 3 Camaro’s or Mustangs sweep the podiums at....let’s say Daytona, there would be no points increase? 
 

And was the FTD at COTA a Miata? Maybe we do need to review the Points for the Miata.
 

3 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

How many of those were scored at the two Harris Hill races where the fields were 90% Miata and track members?  I haven't looked, but I believe the top 3 both days were all Miatas, which kind of skews the data a bit. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

Interesting question and rebuttal. 

 

If 3 Camaro’s or Mustangs sweep the podiums at....let’s say Daytona, there would be no points increase? 
 

And was the FTD at COTA a Miata? Maybe we do need to review the Points for the Miata.
 

 

If 3 of those did sweep the podium that would have to be at least 20% of them that have been built for the series!

 

VPI is based on "stock" performance, so we are told.  Some low point cars start with better HP, while some start with better handling and aftermarket support for road racing.  Comes down to how teams choose to build their cars and the drivers that wheel it.  I'm sure if you put a pro level driver in either car, they would out drive most Champcar drivers.

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Didn't the crowd control mustang end up with like 14 trophies this year?  Yeah, they might be the only team doing well with it, but aren't they the only team running it?

 

I'm not saying the points increase was good or bad, but when your data set is 1, you kinda need to look at that data as possibly true.

 

The fox body mustang is lighter and has essentially the same drivetrain.  If the cobra got a vpi increase, I get why the fox body did too.  At least 1 fox body lite up the lap charts. (Again, sample size is small).

 

The miata people pick tracks that the car is capable at.  Road America does have long straights.  It also has fast corners.  That why the podium is typically a mishmash of cars.

 

I think we have decent parity right now.  If this year shows a clear platform advantage, I'm sure it will get hit with something.

 

If it was all v8 cars winning Daytona, I would say that's the track.  If all smaller cars win gingerman, same thing.

 

The overall data should be used to determine a cars ability and value. 

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Didn't the crowd control mustang end up with like 14 trophies this year?  Yeah, they might be the only team doing well with it, but aren't they the only team running it? Could it possibly be the Drivers, preparation and execution of the race? And it has 4 gallons less fuel than the winning car at Daytona. A Miata was was FTD at COTA. I could go on. The point is non of these cars got an increase for the same reason your quoting the Mustang was increased. 

 

I'm not saying the points increase was good or bad, but when your data set is 1, you kinda need to look at that data as possibly true. Again other cars did the same thing the 95 cobra did. Yet no increase.

 

The fox body mustang is lighter and has essentially the same drivetrain.  If the cobra got a vpi increase, I get why the fox body did too.  At least 1 fox body lite up the lap charts. (Again, sample size is small). Have no issues with increases in points. Just the blatant gerrymandering. 

 

The miata people pick tracks that the car is capable at.  Road America does have long straights.  It also has fast corners.  That why the podium is typically a mishmash of cars. So if a certain make wins at ALL the tracks, points need adjustment? 

 

I think we have decent parity right now.  If this year shows a clear platform advantage, I'm sure it will get hit with something. My point EXACTLY!!! Why the points increase for the Mustang and not other cars that have won? Hey you said there is parity. Obviously we do not want this in our series.

 

If it was all v8 cars winning Daytona, I would say that's the track.  If all smaller cars win gingerman, same thing. Could not agree more. Unfortunately that does not seem to be in the cards. 

 

The overall data should be used to determine a cars ability and value. If we have parity why the increase for one make?

 

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3 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Damn Wing!  It couldn't be the splitter, splitter ramps, flat floor, diffuser, side skirts, fast back, dove tail, mini splitter, hood venting and ducting, fender venting, mini rear splitters, rear tire spats, or former indy lights drivers.   Ban the Wing!     

Put the wing at 50 points, like it should be for the performance gains one allows, and all the sudden you don't have all that other stuff that few teams have the time, knowledge or money to optimize.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

 

Points increase for 1 car getting 14 trophies...

 

Gbu got hit with points to.  So did the Altima in 2020.

 

Not just 1 car.

 

One obvious car because they run at the front a lot.

 

I believe about 6 cars got adjusted. This year.

1 minute ago, Bandit said:

Put the wing at 50 points, like it should be for the performance gains one allows, and all the sudden you don't have all that other stuff that few teams have the time, knowledge or money to optimize.

 

 

Whoa, we are penalizing teams for money, knowledge, and time now?

 

No thanks!

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Whoa, we are penalizing teams for money, knowledge, and time now?

 

No thanks!

You'll change your tune when full aero is required to win.

 

A wing and splitter is easy for the most part. All that crap under the car isn't and it makes the car very sensitive to ride height among other things. Experimenting with suspension settings is very different than figuring out what air is doing under your car. Jim Hall, the dean of racecar aero,  has said he wishes it never happened.

 

Luckykid himself has said one of his pro racer buddies looped the car twice in one lap as he didn't know how to drive it.

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35 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Points increase for 1 car getting 14 trophies... One TEAM earned those trophies in a car crippled by lack of fuel. They figured out how to make it work. Beating some very good teams. 25 points? Just use this philosophy to all makes and teams. 

 

Gbu got hit with points to.  So did the Altima in 2020. The Vette is comical.  My point again. The Altima is less points than the Maxima. Figure that one out. The Altima gets 15 points with more hp, fuel and less weight. The cobra gets 25 points and was a second slower at Daytona. Go figure. 

 

Not just 1 car. Again it is not the increase in points. The blatant double standards. 

 

One obvious car because they run at the front a lot. And so have a lot of other cars. Just use the explanation given to all teams and makes.

 

I believe about 6 cars got adjusted. This year.

Whoa, we are penalizing teams for money, knowledge, and time now?

 

No thanks! Well said. 

 

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1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said:

If 3 of those did sweep the podium that would have to be at least 20% of them that have been built for the series! That was not the question. Irrelevant.

 

VPI is based on "stock" performance, so we are told.  Some low point cars start with better HP, while some start with better handling and aftermarket support for road racing.  Comes down to how teams choose to build their cars and the drivers that wheel it.  This is exactly what C.C. Did. As did any other winning team. 5 gallons shorter in fuel than a 300, 7 less than a 944, 2 less than an E30 with significantly more weight than all three cars mentioned. They made it work. They do not get a break with weight, spindle points, independent rear suspensions, platform swap, etc. They just get 25 points. It does not matter how you justify it. It is still gerrymandering. 
 

 

I'm sure if you put a pro level driver in either car, they would out drive most Champcar drivers. Self evident. Your point? 

 

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4 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

Since 17 how many TEAMS have won with the 300?

Four.

9 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

5 gallons shorter in fuel than a 300

Wrong.

6 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

7 less than a 944

Wrong.

6 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

with significantly more weight than all three cars mentioned

Wrong

 

You can make your point just as well without making up facts.

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