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What happened to your ChampCar today 2021 ??


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8 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

There are some things in this series that are exclusively trading dollars for time on track, most of those are controlled by points.  The ones that aren't should be identified and limited.  Hot compounds are an easy one to identify and regulate.  Race fuel is another.  I also see the +2 gallon fuel cell rule as an issue that incentivizes to spend and reduces parity.

I agree except for the fuel cell. "Hot" consumables are pretty easy to police and ban. If someone has a stack of R7's sitting there ready to go someone will notice so why wouldn't Rival S's or others be the same?

 

Way too many cars have cells, they are part of the car, increase safety in the majority of instances, and are something considered when choosing the car. Don't see them ever going away.

 

ATL will make a cell to your dimensions if you chose poorly and your ride won't take a standard one. One time expense that is cheap compared to going through stacks of hot tires over a season. 

 

As I recall your tire test had more invested than a good quality cell install would cost.

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We've been working on fender flares using metal that we've removed from the trunk lid inside area.  I know it doesn't look like it covers the tire  at 2:00 but it does, optical illusion.    

Hit the dyno to break in new engine build...didn't break, and few extra ponies showed up to the party with a more conservative tune.  Just a few items left to do this weekend, test on Monday and park

Well, I hope they don't try to enforce flare width that exceeds 10 to 2.  It would be a bit tough (and SUCK major) to have to narrow this back up....

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43 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I agree except for the fuel cell. "Hot" consumables are pretty easy to police and ban. If someone has a stack of R7's sitting there ready to go someone will notice so why wouldn't Rival S's or others be the same?

 

Way too many cars have cells, they are part of the car, increase safety in the majority of instances, and are something considered when choosing the car. Don't see them ever going away.

 

ATL will make a cell to your dimensions if you chose poorly and your ride won't take a standard one. One time expense that is cheap compared to going through stacks of hot tires over a season. 

 

As I recall your tire test had more invested than a good quality cell install would cost.

I'm over $4K into tires/rims for testing, and I am $4K into a cell.    Fuel cells are fine, but you shouldn't get 2 gallons for "free" because you can spend the money on a whole new fuel system.

I've submitted petitions have been filed to ban or take away the advantage of the things I just bought.

Edited by LuckyKid
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49 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I agree except for the fuel cell. "Hot" consumables are pretty easy to police and ban. If someone has a stack of R7's sitting there ready to go someone will notice so why wouldn't Rival S's or others be the same?

 

Way too many cars have cells, they are part of the car, increase safety in the majority of instances, and are something considered when choosing the car. Don't see them ever going away.

 

ATL will make a cell to your dimensions if you chose poorly and your ride won't take a standard one. One time expense that is cheap compared to going through stacks of hot tires over a season. 

 

As I recall your tire test had more invested than a good quality cell install would cost.

By one time you mean every 5 years when it expires?

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3 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

By one time you mean every 5 years when it expires?

The bladder expires after 5 and can get a 2 year extension after inspection by ATL.

 

The rest of the system is one time beyond maintenance which any fuel system will need.

 

Seven years is far far different than consumables like tires/gas also referenced in the discussion.

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3 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

I'm over $4K into tires/rims for testing, and I am $4K into a cell.    Fuel cells are fine, but you shouldn't get 2 gallons for "free" because you can spend the money on a whole new fuel system.

I've submitted petitions have been filed to ban or take away the advantage of the things I just bought.

How are you 4k into a cell?  Theres no way that you need to be that much into a fuel cell.

 

If you limit the fuel cell size to stock capacity your going to screw alot of newer vehicles out of CC.  There are lots of 170-200 hp 2500lb cars that are just starting to be affordable and realistic for our series.  The mid 2000s Civics, Cobalts, and lots of other 4 cylinder cars come with 12-13 Gal.  Those are the types of cars that will get more entries out racing.   With 13 Gal, they are well short of 2hr stints. With 15Gal, its barely within range. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Was waiting for someone else to say it.


ATL Cell = $1,316.53
Summit - External Pump, Fittings, Hydramat, Filler = $951.60
Radium Fill Plate/Surge Fittings = $1,415.21
Radium Fuel Filter Fittings = $241.10
Deatschwerks Pumps = $134.96
Moroso Switch Panel = $101.27

= $4160.67

Plus $500 for cage and cell frame welding, then material was maybe $200 on top of that.

So closer to $5K.   Could you do it for less?  Sure, but you need to move everything to AN fittings and expensive hose and add multiple pumps to actually use the extra fuel.  


If you get rid of the free 2 gallons it slows everyone down.  It reduces power potential as well.    These 2500lb 170-200hp cars would be in the same boat as a Miata.  

Edited by LuckyKid
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28 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Radium Fill Plate/Surge Fittings = $1,415.21
Radium Fuel Filter Fittings = $241.10

Didn't know you were building a show car.

 

For those looking to install a cell for reasonable cost I suggest using the Speedway catalog.

 

eta-Some of the stuff you listed, hydramat, pumps, are going to be used with or without the cell.

Edited by Bandit
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4 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Didn't know you were building a show car.

Apparently you haven't seen our car.  I don't believe I've seen yours...

Even if you could get a cell for $1,000 the fact that you are given a free 2 gallons just for spending the money just makes the series more expensive to be competitive in. 
 

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47 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:


ATL Cell = $1,316.53
Summit - External Pump, Fittings, Hydramat, Filler = $951.60
Radium Fill Plate/Surge Fittings = $1,415.21
Radium Fuel Filter Fittings = $241.10
Deatschwerks Pumps = $134.96
Moroso Switch Panel = $101.27

= $4160.67

Plus $500 for cage and cell frame welding, then material was maybe $200 on top of that.

So closer to $5K.   Could you do it for less?  Sure, but you need to move everything to AN fittings and expensive hose and add multiple pumps to actually use the extra fuel.  


If you get rid of the free 2 gallons it slows everyone down.  It reduces power potential as well.    These 2500lb 170-200hp cars would be in the same boat as a Miata.  

Lol. So you want to make things equal to the miatas??? I see.  
 

So a civic or cobalt is 700-800lbs heavier with a gallon more fuel than a miata and you think that’s the same boat?  
 

The series has pretty damn good parity because of things like the extra 2 gallons.  
 

It’s also an incentive to make cars safer.  

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On 2/24/2021 at 4:28 PM, petawawarace said:

It’s also an incentive to make cars safer.  

Have you seen some of the fuel cell installations?  Moving from an OE fuel system to something where entry-level-racer needs to build their own lines and own fittings with their own routing likely negates any safety from a bladder.

Ecotec Cobalt = 300pts
Ecotec Miata = 401pts *Edited

Edited by LuckyKid
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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Have you seen some of the fuel cell installations?  Moving from an OE fuel system to something where entry-level-racer needs to build their own lines and own fittings with their own routing likely negates any safety from a bladder.

Ecotec Cobalt = 300pts
Ecotec Miata = 391pts

Then we should fix the installation rules and ensure they are done properly. Again, saying the cell has to be stock volume does absolutely nothing to solve that issue.  
 

I don’t understand why you have a hate on for the extra 2 gallons?

Everyone is allowed to do it. It’s less of an advantage for cars with bigger cells generally.  It’s actually pretty well done. 

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2 minutes ago, Bandit said:
2007 Chevrolet Cobalt/Curb weight
2,991 to 3,216 lbs

Submit a petition to lower the VPI.   With a fuel cell in a Miata, the Cobalt doesn't stand a chance even on the 8hr days.  Its a false argument to say that allowing the fuel cell makes the Cobalt competitive.

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7 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Have you seen some of the fuel cell installations?  Moving from an OE fuel system to something where entry-level-racer needs to build their own lines and own fittings with their own routing likely negates any safety from a bladder.

Ecotec Cobalt = 300pts
Ecotec Miata = 391pts

Haha.  I’d gladly use 91 pts to lose 800+ lbs and have a way smaller car.
 

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3 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Everyone is allowed to do it. It’s less of an advantage for cars with bigger cells generally.  It’s actually pretty well done. 

Everyone that can afford it is allowed to do it.

This is supposed to be affordable, right?

Edited by LuckyKid
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8 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Everyone that can afford it is allowed to do it.

This is supposed to be affordable, right?

Your flip flopping on your reasoning. 
 

The cost doesn’t hold true.  You can easily put a cell in for less than 2 races worth of tires.
 

 I can’t afford a C3 vette and the engine needed to be competitive. Should we ban that altogether too?

 


 

 

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8 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Your flip flopping on your reasoning. 
 

The cost doesn’t hold true.  You can easily put a cell in for less than 2 races worth of tires.
 

 I can’t afford a C3 vette and the engine needed to be competitive. Should we ban that altogether too?

 


 

 

I want to ban those expensive tires too and filed a petition as such.   A set of RS4s will last least three weekends.

 

And yes I also want to ban what was done to the C3, they've already raised the VPI and I would like to see how that shakes out. 

 

Disallowing the extra 2 gallons will slow them down a bit as well. 

Edited by LuckyKid
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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I want to ban those tires too.   A set of RS4s will last at least three races.

 

And yes I also want to ban what was done to the C3, they've already raised the VPI and I would like to see how that shakes out. 

 

Disallowing the extra 2 gallons will slow them down a bit as well. 

I don’t disagree with most of that.  But the 2 gallons helps the smaller cars more than the bigger ones. 2 gallons on a 13 gal car is 15% more fuel. On a 20 Gal car it’s only 10%.  The 13 gal car generally is more fuel efficient as well. So it actually helps even the field more.  
 

Disallowing the 2 gal will give more of an advantage to the big tank cars.  I don’t think that’s what you want is it?

Edited by petawawarace
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26 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Submit a petition to lower the VPI.   With a fuel cell in a Miata, the Cobalt doesn't stand a chance even on the 8hr days.  Its a false argument to say that allowing the fuel cell makes the Cobalt competitive.

I’m hoping you’d be surprised.  Our 2.4 Cobalt is 4-6 seconds faster than the fastest spec miatas at Calabogie.  We should be substantially faster this year too.  If we had to go back to 13 gal, I’d be done with CC.   
The Civics are another car that’s the same.  

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20 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

And yes I also want to ban what was done to the C3, they've already raised the VPI and I would like to see how that shakes out. 

 

Disallowing the extra 2 gallons will slow them down a bit as well. 

Pretty sure they can still make over 76 minutes at RA with 24 gallons so you may want to recalc your stint breakdowns.

 

I'm assuming that is what you are doing with your crusade against the 2 gallon cell rule. Rarely is a rule petition not self serving.

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26 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I don’t disagree with most of that.  But the 2 gallons helps the smaller cars more than the bigger ones. 2 gallons on a 13 gal car is 15% more fuel. On a 20 Gal car it’s only 10%.  The 13 gal car generally is more fuel efficient as well. So it actually helps even the field more.  

One may have to dig a bit deeper than simple fuel capacity as it comes down to stint breakdowns and how that splits various races up.

 

A 15.5 gallon 230whp V8 dragging around more weight could theoretically have to make 2 more stops than a 13 gallon 145 whp Miata depending on the track and if it's 7 or 8 hours. With a cell it may need only one more for example.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Pretty sure they can still make over 76 minutes at RA with 24 gallons so you may want to recalc your stint breakdowns.

 

I'm assuming that is what you are doing with your crusade against the 2 gallon cell rule. Rarely is a rule petition not self serving.

To my knowledge I am the only competitive Miata which now has a fuel cell.  I have the most to gain from the 2+ gallon fuel cell rule (2.55 seconds a lap at Road America on the 8hr day).  I've long avoided it because the miata fuel system is awesome and its a massive effort to get a cell in the Miata.   If my petition passes, I will have lost most all of the advantage I just paid $4K $5K for.

To my knowledge GBU is focused on other professional series which is why they've dropped out of the recent races, none the less, I gain more than they do from the 2+ gallon rule.   
 

I do want to ban hot tires because of them, and others.   I've gone to a hot compound myself to prove the point(Should be 1.5-2 seconds faster), but the only race with them so far and we've had other issues.  NCM and RA will tell the tale. 

Edited by LuckyKid
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