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What happened to your ChampCar today 2021 ??


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On 2/19/2021 at 2:37 PM, Cam Benty said:

This generator has been invaluable during our time with no power or water. I made a cable to back feed power into the garage 240 fifty amp outlet. ( yes it is illegal I know. Sometimes one needs to do whatever is necessary to survive.) This unit ran everything in our home, with common sense, including the heat pump for 144 hour continuously until the power was restored. Our elderly neighbors and some children  stayed with us until power was restored. We feed 28 people over the last 6 days. We all banded together to help each other in a brutal time. 
 

  Why? Why did this happen? There will be some heads rolling in Texas. 

5BEC88A3-FD4F-4873-A09A-651D3502C5CF.jpeg

only at 26 hours w/out power/water at my place in ATX, but many folks here down for 4 days with lotsa busted pipes...

 

many of my co-workers in Minneapolis relentlessly mocked me from afar about 6 inches of snow a few cold days tipping the grid over...that was hurtful!! :)

 

as for the reason? well, spend a little time with the history of Ercot and Rick Perry....i'll just leave it at that....and no, there will be few to no consequences for those responsible, that's not how the whole G game is played....

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We've been working on fender flares using metal that we've removed from the trunk lid inside area.  I know it doesn't look like it covers the tire  at 2:00 but it does, optical illusion.    

Hit the dyno to break in new engine build...didn't break, and few extra ponies showed up to the party with a more conservative tune.  Just a few items left to do this weekend, test on Monday and park

Well, I hope they don't try to enforce flare width that exceeds 10 to 2.  It would be a bit tough (and SUCK major) to have to narrow this back up....

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15 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:
15 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

To my knowledge I am the only competitive Miata which now has a fuel cell.  I have the most to gain from the 2+ gallon fuel cell rule (2.55 seconds a lap at Road America on the 8hr day).  I've long avoided it because the miata fuel system is awesome and its a massive effort to get a cell in the Miata.   If my petition passes, I will have lost most all of the advantage I just paid $4K $5K for.

To my knowledge GBU is focused on other professional series which is why they've dropped out of the recent races, none the less, I gain more than they do from the 2+ gallon rule.   
 

I do want to ban hot tires because of them, and others.   I've gone to a hot compound myself to prove the point(Should be 1.5-2 seconds faster), but the only race with them so far and we've had other issues.  NCM and RA will tell the tale. 

You seem to be very data based on a lot of the work you do.  I’d be very interested to see what data you have to back up the 2 Gallon rule. 
Your reasonings so far are:

 

1: “it’s expensive”.   - it’s not near as expensive as you make it seem.  Plus, removing the extra 2 gallons isn’t going to make it cheaper to instal a cell.  Even at the same capacity as stock, its a lot easier to get every drop of fuel out of a cell than it is in most stock tanks.  So there will still be an advantage to a cell.  
 

2: “It’s difficult to install properly.” - This may be true in some cars, but definitely not all cars.  
 

3: “Many are not installed properly” - This has no merit on the extra 2 gallons at all.  
 

4: “It will affect everyone equally and slow them all”.  This simply isn’t true. It will hurt smaller tanker cars disproportionately. 
 

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is not self serving, but it sure does seem that way.  

Edited by petawawarace
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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

Everyone that can afford it is allowed to do it.

This is supposed to be affordable, right?

And everyone has the ability to use duct tape. This is supposed to be affordable right?

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26 minutes ago, Bandit said:

One may have to dig a bit deeper than simple fuel capacity as it comes down to stint breakdowns and how that splits various races up.

 

A 15.5 gallon 230whp V8 dragging around more weight could theoretically have to make 2 more stops than a 13 gallon 145 whp Miata depending on the track and if it's 7 or 8 hours. With a cell it may need only one more for example.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely your right.  Each track is different too.  But it’s easy to see that it will hurt the smaller tanks more.  How much can be debated.   

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7 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

You seem to be very data based on a lot of the work you do.  I’d be very interested to see what data you have to back up the 2 Gallon rule. 
Your reasonings so far are:

 

1: “it’s expensive”.   - it’s not near as expensive as you make it seem.  Plus, removing the extra 2 gallons isn’t going to make it cheaper to instal a cell.  Even at the same capacity as stock, its a lot easier to get every drop of fuel out of a cell than it is in most stock tanks.  So there will still be an advantage to a cell.  
 

2: “It’s difficult to install properly.” - This may be true in some cars, but definitely not all cars.  
 

3: “Many are not installed properly” - This has no merit on the extra 2 gallons at all.  
 

4: “It will affect everyone equally and slow them all”.  This simply isn’t true. It will hurt smaller tanker cars disproportionately. 
 

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that this is not self serving, but it sure does seem that way.  


I have one point - The 2+ gallon rule is trading dollars for a significant on track advantage.  CCES should work to minimize rules like this.   No matter how you slice it, fuel cells are expensive, at the low end, about the same cost as an event entry when you include all of the odds and ends that a fuel cell requires.


How is this self serving?  What team would be impacted greater than we will?

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8 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Absolutely your right.  Each track is different too.  But it’s easy to see that it will hurt the smaller tanks more.  How much can be debated.   

Right. Tank size is obvious. I just wanted to point out that if one goes a bit deeper some interesting scenarios can show up.

 

Just going off the top of my head, so I may be off a little here with the maths, at Road America a car that can go 1:50 has no advantage over one that can go 1:35 as they will make the same number of fuel stops. If one takes away 2 gallons  from a guy that just makes 1:35 he will have to make an extra stop while doing the same with the car that runs 1:50, dropping him to 1:35 for fuel, he is not penalized.

 

Hypothetical, but very real if one puts in accurate data for various teams.

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27 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:


I have one point - The 2+ gallon rule is trading dollars for a significant on track advantage.  CCES should work to minimize rules like this.   No matter how you slice it, fuel cells are expensive, at the low end, about the same cost as an event entry when you include all of the odds and ends that a fuel cell requires.


How is this self serving?  What team would be impacted greater than we will?

$849 for a cell with fittings in it.   

$150 for a pump and filter. 
$150 more for lines and fittings.  
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Fuel-Safe-ED117-17-Gallon-Dirt-Modified-Fuel-Cell,83879.html


 

Im sorry, but that is extremely affordable for a rated fuel cell and way safer than a stock tank.  
 

The 4K cost you originally said was what set off alarms.  
 

If you can’t agree that what I’ve posted above is affordable, it’s pretty clear there’s something else that your not sharing.  

Edited by petawawarace
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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

  I've long avoided it because the miata fuel system is awesome and its a massive effort to get a cell in the Miata.   If my petition passes, I will have lost most all of the advantage I just paid $4K $5K for.
 

 

Hopefully with your fuel cell install you have moved the filler to a reasonable location. I still don’t see how they allow fueling of stock Miata’s with a driver change going on. You have an open car with fueling going on a foot away from the driver, and 4 people inside the fireball instead of 2. It should be mandatory that fuel fillers are on the passenger side to keep the fueling and driver changes separated.

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12 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

$849 for a cell with fittings in it.   

$150 for a pump and filter. 
$150 more for lines and fittings.  
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Fuel-Safe-ED117-17-Gallon-Dirt-Modified-Fuel-Cell,83879.html


 

Im sorry, but that is extremely affordable for a rated fuel cell and way safer than a stock tank.  
 

The 4K cost you originally said was what set off alarms.  
 

If you can’t agree that what I’ve posted above is affordable, it’s pretty clear there’s something else that your not sharing.  

$1149 vs. $0 all based on an arbitrary rule that was made before the series was as fast as it is today to allow more options for those that wanted a cell.

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20 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

$849 for a cell with fittings in it.   

$150 for a pump and filter. 
$150 more for lines and fittings.  
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Fuel-Safe-ED117-17-Gallon-Dirt-Modified-Fuel-Cell,83879.html


 

Im sorry, but that is extremely affordable for a rated fuel cell and way safer than a stock tank.  
 

The 4K cost you originally said was what set off alarms.  
 

If you can’t agree that what I’ve posted above is affordable, it’s pretty clear there’s something else that your not sharing.  

So why should a team that has an extra $1100 get two more gallons than one that doesn't? 

 

Believe it or not, this series used to allow teams to buy "bonus laps", like straight up you paid cash for laps added to your total, does that sound fair? They were also "extremely affordable" based on your standards FWIW

Edited by ABR-Glen
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6that appears to be a plastic cell in a can.  Don't believe that is legal and probably not sfi certifiable.  Also, don't they need to be fia certified?

 

Edit.  I am wrong on both counts.  That cell could be 28.3 sfi certified.  Also, only need sfi 28.1 for champcar.

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

6that appears to be a plastic cell in a can.  Don't believe that is legal and probably not sfi certifiable.  Also, don't they need to be fia certified?

9.10.2.3. All fuel cells must have FIA-FT3 (or higher) or SFI-28.1 certification.

9.10.2.9. Rotary-molded (plastic) fuel tanks are allowed as fuel cells provided they are SFI and/or FIA certified, foam filled and fully encased in a metal enclosure, as well as properly installed and supported in the vehicle. 

 

From the Jaz link; "Any JAZ poly tank with or without outer metal container can be SFI 28.3 certified for an additional charge."

 

I also thought only rubber bladders were legal until a few weeks ago when I came across that while probing for grey areas.

 

And roto molded fuel tanks have been common on production vehicles for years.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

6that appears to be a plastic cell in a can.  Don't believe that is legal and probably not sfi certifiable.  Also, don't they need to be fia certified?

 

Jaz fuel cells are SFI legal, but they don’t install the stickers due to being shaken down by SFI for the stickers. Almost no other racing series in the US cares about the SFI sticker. Jaz will happily install a SFI sticker for you, you must buy the cell directly from Jaz and send them an extra $70.

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5 minutes ago, Bandit said:

9.10.2.3. All fuel cells must have FIA-FT3 (or higher) or SFI-28.1 certification.

9.10.2.9. Rotary-molded (plastic) fuel tanks are allowed as fuel cells provided they are SFI and/or FIA certified, foam filled and fully encased in a metal enclosure, as well as properly installed and supported in the vehicle. 

 

From the Jaz link; "Any JAZ poly tank with or without outer metal container can be SFI 28.3 certified for an additional charge."

 

I also thought only rubber bladders were legal until a few weeks ago when I came across that while probing for grey areas.

 

And roto molded fuel tanks have been common on production vehicles for years.

Yeah, I went back and looked and edited my post.  I was sure they had to be bladder type.  That sure does make a fuel cell a lot cheaper!

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yeah, I went back and looked and edited my post.  I was sure they had to be bladder type.  That sure does make a fuel cell a lot cheaper!

I'm almost positive that only the bladder style was allowed in the past. No idea when it changed.

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11 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

$1149 vs. $0 all based on an arbitrary rule that was made before the series was as fast as it is today to allow more options for those that wanted a cell.

Ok, so you can admit that this is now over as little as $1000.  It will negatively affect a lot of teams that utilize the extra capacity.   It will discourage a very large amount of newer era cars from being built or running the series. Champcar can’t run on miatas and BMWs forever. It will also discourage getting a proper safe racing cell and continue the use of stock tanks that are in god knows what condition.  
 

It’s an option that allows cars that are not competitive fuel capacity wise to atleast get a bit closer.  
 

A lot of competitive cars can already do 2hrs on a stock tank.  They won’t be affected (better chance of winning).  The cars that will be affected are small stock tanks and to a lesser extent the fuel guzzling very fast cars that burn through gas.  

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10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yeah, I went back and looked and edited my post.  I was sure they had to be bladder type.  That sure does make a fuel cell a lot cheaper!

 

6 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I'm almost positive that only the bladder style was allowed in the past. No idea when it changed.

 

The fuel cell rule has always been the same, we installed a Jaz fuel cell with the SFI sticker in 2013. A big problem with the Jaz cells is that they jump from 16 gallons to 22 gallons which makes it hard to get your plus 2 gallons. Now I have the stock 16 gallons, but to go to the 18 that I am allowed I would have to go a different route.

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9 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Ok, so you can admit that this is now over as little as $1000.  It will negatively affect a lot of teams that utilize the extra capacity.   It will discourage a very large amount of newer era cars from being built or running the series. Champcar can’t run on miatas and BMWs forever. It will also discourage getting a proper safe racing cell and continue the use of stock tanks that are in god knows what condition.  
 

It’s an option that allows cars that are not competitive fuel capacity wise to atleast get a bit closer.  
 

A lot of competitive cars can already do 2hrs on a stock tank.  They won’t be affected (better chance of winning).  The cars that will be affected are small stock tanks and to a lesser extent the fuel guzzling very fast cars that burn through gas.  

Do you think there are cars in this series that wouldn't benefit from 2 more gallons of fuel?

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5 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

 

 

The fuel cell rule has always been the same, we installed a Jaz fuel cell with the SFI sticker in 2013. A big problem with the Jaz cells is that they jump from 16 gallons to 22 gallons which makes it hard to get your plus 2 gallons. Now I have the stock 16 gallons, but to go to the 18 that I am allowed I would have to go a different route.

RCI has a wedge style 18 gallon SFI cell that may work.

https://www.rciracing.com/ctwedge.html

 

$318 at Jeg's

https://www.jegs.com/i/RCI/821/1182FD/10002/-1

Edited by Bandit
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