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Fielding petition input


enginerd
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8 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I can make a wing out of repurposed material and its zero points.  If tape is free to use in any way, then the wing would also be zero points if made of duct tape.

Don't get me wrong, the rule currently makes it illegal to use tape in ways that its being used by some teams, I just wanted to reinforce this in the rule to reel it in.    I also just submitted a tech-desk ticket to get a clarification here.

At Road America we lost part of our dovetail after a contact.  We removed the panel and tapped the few scraps for day two, hopefully it would be considered a repair due to the recency of the event.   Rather than keep it like that, we bought new door cards and are making a new panel, because it would be illegal to keep it that way with nearly an entire panel as made of tape.  

Sorry, but your wrong here.  You can’t repurpose material for aero devices for 0 points.  You can make a splitter, wing, diffuser out of any material and the points are all the same (except CF).  If you choose to do that with duct tape, that’s on you, but it should be assessed 10 pts.   
 

If your worried about “front wings” then submit a petition asking for them to be added to the list of aero devices.  Although the rules don’t say where the wing is located, so it would already be 10pts

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5 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Sorry, but your wrong here.  You can’t repurpose material for aero devices for 0 points.

Nope, this is where you are wrong...

Such a charge was made 2? Years ago and then retracted within a week. CEO firmly stated and doubled down that if you repurpose something originally on the car it’s zero points no matter what you make from it. 

Edited by enginerd
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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Nope, this is where you are wrong...

Such a charge was made 2? Years ago and then retracted within a week. CEO firmly stated and doubled down that if you repurpose something originally on the car it’s zero points no matter what you make from it. 

lol that’s not how anyone would read the current rule book or any tech desk articles that I’ve seen.  
So another back door, privileged information “rule”

Crazy thought here, but maybe the better solution is to fix that problem first.  

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10 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

lol that’s not how anyone would read the current rule book or any tech desk articles that I’ve seen.  
So another back door, privileged information “rule”

Crazy thought here, but maybe the better solution is to fix that problem first.  

Tech Desk:  https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=57

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18 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

lol that’s not how anyone would read the current rule book or any tech desk articles that I’ve seen.  
So another back door, privileged information “rule”

Crazy thought here, but maybe the better solution is to fix that problem first.  

Go read the threads on it. When this change came out (the gist was “anything on the fixed value list [which includes wing/splitter/etc.] is that amount of points no matter what it is made from”) I celebrated it and several others did. Then CEO said ‘nope, we want you to be able to make parts from other parts and sheet metal so we are removing this, repurpose all your want.’

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5 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Ok, so it’s barely stated.  It’s nowhere in the rule book.  
Not to mention, duct tape is not a re-purposed material. It’s no different than making a wing or splitter out of plastic or aluminum.  So you’d still be charged 10pts.  

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3 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Ok, so it’s barely stated.  It’s nowhere in the rule book.  
Not to mention, duct tape is not a re-purposed material. It’s no different than making a wing or splitter out of plastic or aluminum.  So you’d still be charged 10pts.  

4.7.2

...

Materials from your vehicle are permitted to
be repurposed into other items for zero points, provided teams retain documented evidence of the process

...

 

what you brought up and what I was responding to has nothing to do with duct tape. 

Edited by enginerd
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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Go read the threads on it. When this change came out (the gist was “anything on the fixed value list [which includes wing/splitter/etc.] is that amount of points no matter what it is made from”) I celebrated it and several others did. Then CEO said ‘nope, we want you to be able to make parts from other parts and sheet metal so we are removing this, repurpose all your want.’

First off, I shouldn’t have to read forum threads to build a car.  The BCCR and Tech desk are enough as it is. 
Secondly, if you can repurpose materials for aero devices, what does that have to do with duct tape? You can’t make the aero device solely out of duct tape as it’s not repurposed material.  You can use it to hold the pieces of headliner together I guess, but then it’s being used as a form of fastener.  

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Just now, petawawarace said:

First off, I shouldn’t have to read forum threads to build a car.  The BCCR and Tech desk are enough as it is. 
Secondly, if you can repurpose materials for aero devices, what does that have to do with duct tape? You can’t make the aero device solely out of duct tape as it’s not repurposed material.  You can use it to hold the pieces of headliner together I guess, but then it’s being used as a form of fastener.  

That's not the point. The point is duct tape is currently being used outside of the way the rule is written.  

 

I submitted a petition to correct this, and I just submitted a tech desk ticket as well.

 

I've already been told in a tech desk ticket that other fasteners cannot be used for anything other than fastening something to something else.  It would follow that duct tape will be treated the same way, especially when the literal text of the rule states that. 

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2 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

First off, I shouldn’t have to read forum threads to build a car.  The BCCR and Tech desk are enough as it is. 
Secondly, if you can repurpose materials for aero devices, what does that have to do with duct tape? You can’t make the aero device solely out of duct tape as it’s not repurposed material.  You can use it to hold the pieces of headliner together I guess, but then it’s being used as a form of fastener.  

Unrelated to duct tape, if you cut the roof off your car for a fun California look, you can use every inch of what used to be your roof to build zero point wing / splitter / etc. 

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46 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Unrelated to duct tape, if you cut the roof off your car for a fun California look, you can use every inch of what used to be your roof to build zero point wing / splitter / etc. 

I really don't want a convertible but that would mean essentially all aero on the car would be free. (It has a big roof that happens to be pretty heavy as well...)

 

To be blunt, that is a stupid ruling.

 

Perhaps the new CEO has other ideas.

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

That's not the point. The point is duct tape is currently being used outside of the way the rule is written.  

 

I submitted a petition to correct this, and I just submitted a tech desk ticket as well.

 

I've already been told in a tech desk ticket that other fasteners cannot be used for anything other than fastening something to something else.  It would follow that duct tape will be treated the same way, especially when the literal text of the rule states that. 

Specifically how is duct tape being used outside of the rules?  
The covering of body holes was mentioned.  That is a minuscule advantage for an extreme amount of work. 
Are there other things that it’s being used for that you’d care to share? 
I just don’t see how having a rule about regulating the use of duct tape has any benefit.     Please re-read that last sentence and let it sink in for a minute.  It’s just duct tape.  

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Go read the threads on it. When this change came out (the gist was “anything on the fixed value list [which includes wing/splitter/etc.] is that amount of points no matter what it is made from”) I celebrated it and several others did. Then CEO said ‘nope, we want you to be able to make parts from other parts and sheet metal so we are removing this, repurpose all your want.’

 

Ditto... What I then started calling the " not fixed vpi list". I did mange to break the system when I suggested that made reground cams free, so there is at least one truly fixed item on the "not fixed vpi list". 

 

Granted I could see cutting a link and welding it back together as free, but using the dash panels to make an air dam to avoid paying aero points seems a bit out of scope for a race series trying to grow into 15-20k total build cost for a winner series (dare I say, "respectable" cars). Back when we kept the cars slower, cheaper build targets and had a more junkyard wars outlook under a different name.... sure

Edited by Black Magic
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14 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Specifically how is duct tape being used outside of the rules?  
The covering of body holes was mentioned.  That is a minuscule advantage for an extreme amount of work. 
Are there other things that it’s being used for that you’d care to share? 
I just don’t see how having a rule about regulating the use of duct tape has any benefit.     Please re-read that last sentence and let it sink in for a minute.  It’s just duct tape.  

Any instance where duct tape isn't used to attach things to other things per 4.7.2.

Laminating a panel, filing in a panel/hole, covering a swiss cheesed car.  

It was illegal to use JB weld to smooth a throttle plate shaft, then why wouldn't it be illegal to use another fastener to smooth a body panel?

*Note we have panels that are laminated with tape as well. 

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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Any instance where duct tape isn't used to attach things to other things per 4.7.2.

Laminating a panel, filing in a panel/hole, covering a swiss cheesed car.  

It was illegal to use JB weld to smooth a throttle plate shaft, then why wouldn't it be illegal to use another fastener to smooth a body panel?

*Note we have panels that are laminated with tape as well. 

Again I’ll ask, if I use vinyl wrap on my car to cover the holes is it illegal?  

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1 minute ago, Ronh911 said:

Again I’ll ask, if I use vinyl wrap on my car to cover the holes is it illegal?  

Per the rule as its written and enforced with other fasteners, yes. But I have an email from tech pre-tech - desk saying the opposite.  Your car and my car also are the enforcement counterpoint to the written rule. 

Edited by LuckyKid
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6 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Any instance where duct tape isn't used to attach things to other things per 4.7.2.

Laminating a panel, filing in a panel/hole, covering a swiss cheesed car.  

It was illegal to use JB weld to smooth a throttle plate shaft, then why wouldn't it be illegal to use another fastener to smooth a body panel?

*Note we have panels that are laminated with tape as well. 

Jb weld in that instance would not be fastening anything together.   Laminating is a form of fastening panels together.  Not really any different than glue. 
 

Covering gaps I can see a small argument. But is that really a big deal? If joe blow is not great at fabrication, he should be allowed to cover some gaps with duct tape.   That’s what this series is about IMO

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1 minute ago, LuckyKid said:

Per the rule as its written, and enforced with other fasteners, yes. But I have an email from tech pre-tech - desk saying the opposite.  Your car and my car also are the enforcement counterpoint to the written rule. 

So I can’t wrap my car if it has a hole in the body?  But the multitudes of other cars that are wrapped are ok?   I’m not talking about tape, I’m talking about vinyl car wrapping material.  

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2 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Sorry, but your wrong here.  You can’t repurpose material for aero devices for 0 points.  You can make a splitter, wing, diffuser out of any material and the points are all the same (except CF).  If you choose to do that with duct tape, that’s on you, but it should be assessed 10 pts.   
 

If your worried about “front wings” then submit a petition asking for them to be added to the list of aero devices.  Although the rules don’t say where the wing is located, so it would already be 10pts

Oh, you can repurpose anything into something else except for camshafts....

 

People have already made aero devices out of repurposed stuff.  Absolutely, currently, legal.

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2 hours ago, petawawarace said:

lol that’s not how anyone would read the current rule book or any tech desk articles that I’ve seen.  
So another back door, privileged information “rule”

Crazy thought here, but maybe the better solution is to fix that problem first.  

It was posted on all social media and a video was made about it.  The rule doesn't say you cant.

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59 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It was posted on all social media and a video was made about it.  The rule doesn't say you cant.

How long ago was this posted? How do you expect someone new to the series to know this poop?  
 

Im done arguing about duct tape. If the rule can be written to be sensible and close an extremely tiny loophole that affects 1% of the cars being raced then have at it. Just make sure it doesn’t affect the other 90% that use it to cover up damage, or make their fab skills more appealing!

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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

How long ago was this posted? How do you expect someone new to the series to know this poop?  
 

Im done arguing about duct tape. If the rule can be written to be sensible and close an extremely tiny loophole that affects 1% of the cars being raced then have at it. Just make sure it doesn’t affect the other 90% that use it to cover up damage, or make their fab skills more appealing!

It's Also in the rules....

 

4.7.2 about 2/3 down the page as posted above...

 

 Materials from your vehicle are permitted to 
be repurposed into other items for zero points, 
provided teams retain documented evidence of 
the process

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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

How long ago was this posted? How do you expect someone new to the series to know this poop?  
 

Im done arguing about duct tape. If the rule can be written to be sensible and close an extremely tiny loophole that affects 1% of the cars being raced then have at it. Just make sure it doesn’t affect the other 90% that use it to cover up damage, or make their fab skills more appealing!

Like the others have said, about 2 years ago when a lot of folks were excited to see it wasn't allowed, only to have it redacted from the rules and stated to be ok.....

 

Wasn't part of this related to the inverted trunk lid not being called a spoiler?  Think it was on an sc300?

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