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3 hours ago, Ronh911 said:

So I can’t wrap my car if it has a hole in the body?  But the multitudes of other cars that are wrapped are ok?   I’m not talking about tape, I’m talking about vinyl car wrapping material.  

I think wraps should be legal.  I think your tape should be legal.  Tape gets used too many ways in emergency situations to consider a rule against its liberal use, in my opinion. 
There are bigger problems to solve. 

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I think wraps should be legal.  I think your tape should be legal.  Tape gets used too many ways in emergency situations to consider a rule against its liberal use, in my opinion.  There are bigger

So does that mean cars can’t be wrapped either?  

Red Green would not approve of limiting Duct tape! Me either.😁

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Again, just a silly citrus here, but as I see it, with the allowance to repurpose and the ability to use duct tape, what keeps someone from lets say

 

1. Remove trunk lid

2. Cover trunk "hole" in duct tape

3. Use trunk lid to make airdam/splitter/rear wing.

 

As I see it, this is "stretching" the rules.

 

Remember, I don't race in champ. I just cook for you all.

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8 minutes ago, Fitsbain said:

Again, just a silly citrus here, but as I see it, with the allowance to repurpose and the ability to use duct tape, what keeps someone from lets say

 

1. Remove trunk lid

2. Cover trunk "hole" in duct tape

3. Use trunk lid to make airdam/splitter/rear wing.

 

As I see it, this is "stretching" the rules.

 

Remember, I don't race in champ. I just cook for you all.

I'm pretty sure you can't take off a panel, replace it, then use the material to make another part, panel, etc. for free using repurposed materials. 

For example, I can't take off the hood, replace it with a fiberglass hood (or a duct tape hood), then cut up the hood to make a wing and splitter. 

 

I also believe this discussion is going off the rails and the whole complaint about using tape is nothing more than a witch hunt (as are a number of other proposal and complaints floated this week). 

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25 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I'm pretty sure you can't take off a panel, replace it, then use the material to make another part, panel, etc. for free using repurposed materials. 

For example, I can't take off the hood, replace it with a fiberglass hood (or a duct tape hood), then cut up the hood to make a wing and splitter. 

 

I also believe this discussion is going off the rails and the whole complaint about using tape is nothing more than a witch hunt (as are a number of other proposal and complaints floated this week). 

This is how I see it as well.  You can't replace something and then use the part taken off for something else.

 

However, the only hiccup I see is if you pay points for materials for the part put on the car, maybe you can reuse the existing part.  You already paid for it (materials).

 

Also, I agree with your last statement.  However, it has added a bit of spice to the forum. 

 

It's like once a month or so, there are a number of ideas thrown about that would make changes to half the cars in the field....

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

This is how I see it as well.  You can't replace something and then use the part taken off for something else.

 

However, the only hiccup I see is if you pay points for materials for the part put on the car, maybe you can reuse the existing part.  You already paid for it (materials).

 

Also, I agree with your last statement.  However, it has added a bit of spice to the forum. 

 

It's like once a month or so, there are a number of ideas thrown about that would make changes to half the cars in the field....

That would be like getting a two-fer. You pay for a hood, then use the repurposed materials for free. 

 

And yeah, anybody who can't see the agenda behind these is blind. 

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46 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I also believe this discussion is going off the rails and the whole complaint about using tape is nothing more than a witch hunt (as are a number of other proposal and complaints floated this week). 

It wasn't my intent for this to get so far off the rails.  What really spurred this was the fact that I was removing duct tape  that was used in place of a panel that was destroyed.  I am adding a new panel(door card) back in and removed the duct tape since the rule shouldn't really allow that duct tape in.   I also received the ruling about JB Weld, another fastener that would make wraps illegal.   I too am using tape(as a wrap) to smooth out areas of my car. 

Right now, what is clear is that the rule doesn't match what is currently being done.  I don't necessarily want to change what is being done, but I do think the rule needs clarified.   Banning wraps is not my intent by bringing this up.  

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3 hours ago, Snorman said:

I'm pretty sure you can't take off a panel, replace it, then use the material to make another part, panel, etc. for free using repurposed materials. 

For example, I can't take off the hood, replace it with a fiberglass hood (or a duct tape hood), then cut up the hood to make a wing and splitter. 

 

I also believe this discussion is going off the rails and the whole complaint about using tape is nothing more than a witch hunt (as are a number of other proposal and complaints floated this week). 

Let’s say I cut out large portions of my car body and then “wrap it” in a thin decorative wrap made from woven glass fibers instead of the usual vinyl, and then seal it with a curing resin?

Edited by enginerd
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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Let’s say I cut out large portions of my car body and then “wrap it” in a thin high strength decorative wrap made from woven glass fibers instead of the usual nylon, and then seal it with a curing resin?

Then it would be fiberglass, not a wrap. 

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

I'm pretty sure you can't take off a panel, replace it, then use the material to make another part, panel, etc. for free using repurposed materials. 

For example, I can't take off the hood, replace it with a fiberglass hood (or a duct tape hood), then cut up the hood to make a wing and splitter. 


I believe this is correct. You can't add a fuel cell, and then use the stock fuel tank to build a rear wing for 0 points. 

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38 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

This is how I see it as well.  You can't replace something and then use the part taken off for something else.

I'm not finding anything in the rules that says that. 

 

While I agree with your POV, the rules do not say as much.

 

All I find is this;

• Materials from your vehicle are permitted to be repurposed into other items for zero points, provided teams retain documented evidence of the process 

 

Granted, the rule book is growing so it's quite possible I overlooked something. Or it's in the tech desk which I don't care to sift through.

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6 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I'm not finding anything in the rules that says that. 

 

While I agree with your POV, the rules do not say as much.

 

All I find is this;

• Materials from your vehicle are permitted to be repurposed into other items for zero points, provided teams retain documented evidence of the process 

 

Granted, the rule book is growing so it's quite possible I overlooked something. Or it's in the tech desk which I don't care to sift through.

It would be covered in the process documentation.  

 

It is not specifically called out in the bccr, but the interpretations have all been in line with this.  Maybe that rule should be clarified.

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It would be covered in the process documentation.  

 

It is not specifically called out in the bccr, but the interpretations have all been in line with this.  Maybe that rule should be clarified.

I guess I don't follow the thought process that makes it legal to cut your roof off to make free aero parts but one can't do the same by spending 25 points for a glass hood and then using the steel hood for the same free aero bits. 

 

To be clear, I'm not advocating this but the logic seems contorted.

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22 hours ago, enginerd said:

I’m planning to write a petition but won’t waste my time if membership isn’t in favor. 

 

Here’s the gist:

Duct tape is being used as a building material but it’s claimed under the free and vague “fastener” exemption. 
 

Tape used to cover a seam or gap in bodywork is fine with me, but if you cut holes through the body to reduce weight and then cover those holes with tape to solve the aero drag that would result from the holes, you should be paying for it.

 

 

(by my reading, this should be points already, because the tape isn’t being used as a fastener... it isn’t being used to “attach things to other things”.. but tech has allowed it so a rewriting of the rule may be needed)


 

Let me know your thoughts. 

Let us call this what it.  We all know you are specifically targeting a specific team to make a rule to punish that team. The question I ask is why?  Now, I could be wrong and maybe there are lots and lots of teams that cut holes all over the car and covered in tape, but I do not know of them. Maybe I am not looking well. I am a big weight wennie to save weight in whatever I can and did not see this as a viable option that had enough gains to justify it.  I do not know of another team that does it like that. I also think we all have holes that we cover with vinyl or tape, such as door handles and things like that, does not really matter.

 

Visceral has cut holes in the body and covered it in duct tape. I personally asked them how much do you really save by cutting holes and then covering the entire car in duct tape. Subtract holes and add rolls and rolls of duct tape.  Not much at all and my bet is a single digit # number and if not a very low double digit number.  Will that matter enough to make a rule for it?

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7 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Let us call this what it.  We all know you are specifically targeting a specific team to make a rule to punish that team. The question I ask is why?  Now, I could be wrong and maybe there are lots and lots of teams that cut holes all over the car and covered in tape, but I do not know of them. Maybe I am not looking well. I am a big weight wennie to save weight in whatever I can and did not see this as a viable option that had enough gains to justify it.  I do not know of another team that does it like that. I also think we all have holes that we cover with vinyl or tape, such as door handles and things like that, does not really matter.

 

Visceral has cut holes in the body and covered it in duct tape. I personally asked them how much do you really save by cutting holes and then covering the entire car in duct tape. Subtract holes and add rolls and rolls of duct tape.  Not much at all and my bet is a single digit # number and if not a very low double digit number.  Will that matter enough to make a rule for it?

This sets a precedent that anything done with duct tape is free. That is the problem that I want to nip before some other team really makes it a problem.

The performance gain that Visceral has by doing this (if any) is irrelevant. Just like if I found some loophole that allowed me to run a turbo for free, and at the next 3 events I blew it up, the loophole would still need to be closed even though I didn’t actually do better with the free turbo. Get it?

 

“It’s not a big deal” is a really crappy reason to not resolve a rule issue. If you ignore enough things that “aren’t a big deal”, pretty soon some team will incorporate all of them and make it a problem. Partsbadger is that team, watch out. They already pushed through being able to use the replacement lexan rear window in a location that isn’t where the original window was. Mike and Tech misread the rule and allowed it, and then instead of saying “oops, undo your window” when I pointed it out to them, they changed the rule to make non-OE position of replacement window lexan allowed. “Yea, but changing the angle and position of the rear window isn’t a big deal, aero will be all wrong and gaps won’t align.” Add in a bunch of free duct tape and it’s a streamliner.


As a racer you know that it’s a bunch of little things that add up to make a big difference, why not close this one while it’s still little?

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

This sets a precedent that anything done with duct tape is free. That is the problem that I want to nip before some other team really makes it a problem.

The performance gain that Visceral has by doing this (if any) is irrelevant. Just like if I found some loophole that allowed me to run a turbo for free, and at the next 3 events I blew it up, the loophole would still need to be closed even though I didn’t actually do better with the free turbo. Get it?

 

“It’s not a big deal” is a really crappy reason to not resolve a rule issue. If you ignore enough things that “aren’t a big deal”, pretty soon some team will incorporate all of them and make it a problem. Partsbadger is that team, watch out. They already pushed through being able to use the replacement lexan rear window in a location that isn’t where the original window was. Mike and Tech misread the rule and allowed it, and then instead of saying “oops, undo your window” when I pointed it out to them, they changed the rule to make non-OE position of replacement window lexan allowed. “Yea, but changing the angle and position of the rear window isn’t a big deal, aero will be all wrong and gaps won’t align.” Add in a bunch of free duct tape and it’s a streamliner.


As a racer you know that it’s a bunch of little things that add up to make a big difference, why not close this one while it’s still little?

I get that idea then. Duct tape has been free for years and years and has not caused anything crazy. The one way I used it in a pinch was to make a fender flare, it looked pretty dang good if you ask me, for zero points, as the one we had broke off. Got to love at track fixes. 

 

Now if we put this rule through it really really hurts one team and as is will basically make them EC. Is that fair to them to make that rule. What it looks like to me, and my perception of you suggesting it, is that you are targeting a specific team with a specific rule to get rid of that team. I doubt that is the case, but it sure looks like. Sure, they can redo the car at a high cost at this point since 944 parts are costly and have to redo quarter panels, but should they.

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35 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

We all know you are specifically targeting a specific team to make a rule to punish that team.

Nonononononono... don’t read into this in that way. I don’t give 2 shirts about Visceral or care that they are the team using tape like this.

 

Also, I don’t want to make a rule, the rule already exists stating that duct tape can be used for free as a fastener. It doesn’t say it can be used for free as a building material. I just want the existing rule enforced and a non-zero point value assigned to using tape in this manner. 

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2 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


I believe this is correct. You can't add a fuel cell, and then use the stock fuel tank to build a rear wing for 0 points. 

 

I don't believe it was ever made public, but I have a tech desk ruling that says the opposite.  For those with access, see ticket 366.

 

If I cut the floor pan out of the trunk to install a fuel cell, is it permissible to repurpose the removed material elsewhere for free?

Reply byJay Mauney»6-May-2020 10:43pm

Please submit your year make and model as required. Also sent pictures of the material. Photos of where it was removed from and what you intend to do with the material.

NOTE: If you remove material and then replace it with new material of course then you can reuse the removed and replaced material

I look forward to seeing you pictures and intended use.

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23 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

I don't believe it was ever made public, but I have a tech desk ruling that says the opposite.  For those with access, see ticket 366.

 

If I cut the floor pan out of the trunk to install a fuel cell, is it permissible to repurpose the removed material elsewhere for free?

Reply byJay Mauney»6-May-2020 10:43pm

Please submit your year make and model as required. Also sent pictures of the material. Photos of where it was removed from and what you intend to do with the material.

NOTE: If you remove material and then replace it with new material of course then you can reuse the removed and replaced material

I look forward to seeing you pictures and intended use.

Of course you can do that. Andrew was talking about what some dolt proposed on the forums like 6 years ago... “can I install a fuel cell and then take my OLD FUEL TANK and cut it up to make a wing?”. That of course is ridiculous. 
 

You have to look at these things like engineers do with physics problems.. take your car and draw a containment zone around it (bounding box maybe?). Anything that goes in or out must be accounted for. You are REPLACING the fuel tank with a new one. New goes in, old goes out, containment zone is intact. You cannot then take the old fuel tank and use it for some other purpose because it would violate conservation. Just like if you replace old parts, you cannot reuse the replaced parts elsewhere, you have REPLACED THEM. If you cut out the floor of your trunk but don’t replace it with a different floor, you can still use that because it is still within the containment zone. Bonus if your fuel cell is roughly the same size and shape to fill the hole, that’s clever.

 

If you REPLACE your hood with a fiberglass one, you pay for the fiberglass hood with points and lose the original. It has been replaced. If you bring some sheet metal into the containment zone to build some fender flares, then you pay points on this new material coming in which wasn’t originally on the car. 

Edited by enginerd
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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

You have to look at these things like engineers do with physics problems..

 

NM license 19412.

 

Nearly every trunk mounted cell I see is in a metal box.  Metal was cut away, and more was put back.  Sounds exactly like the "containment zone" as you described it.

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