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Petition to stop rule changes


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Thoughts???

 

Only allow 2 fixed point changes per year.   This includes during the season changes to the BCCR.   
 

Except for the following: 

- Safety updates 

- VPI adjustments

- Simple clarifications

- outright banning of parts (certain “special tires” that come on the market etc.  

- Swap weight adjustments 

- Emergency changes that require unanimous BOD approval.  

 

Reasoning:

Im new to Champcar. The number of rule changes that have had points implications since i started building my car 1 year ago is ridiculous.  I’ve read lots about how a 500 point car 5 years ago is now 380.  This is also known as speed creep.   Several changes were made and published to the BCCR only to be overturned or changed after a few months.  
If a team wants to be competitive, they are constantly changing their car to suit the rules. 
 

Hopefully this will do several things:

-Encourage the BOD to prioritize changes.  

- Force the changes to be properly thought out and researched before publishing. 
- Slow speed creep down

- Stop teams from spending money on upgrades every single year.  
 

 

 

Any ideas how how to word this better or things to add?
 

 

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The ruleset needs to be both proactive and reactive.   

 

If the rule set was fixed you would get extremely perverse results as people take advantage of the open ruleset which is far from perfect.  

 

I do however think any rule change needs to be in 100% alignment with the vision and mission of ChampCar.  Every decision should be a progression towards the vision.

 

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Add in that swap weight changes need to be announced with the reasoning behind it. Too easy to "help" someone out discretely and there is no accountability.

 

How many people knew an 88 Supra has a swap weight of 3600 pounds? Or an 88 CRX is 2300?

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30 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

 I’ve read lots about how a 500 point car 5 years ago is now 380. 

We were 497 in 2015, last year it would have been 318. Haven't looked this year.

 

I redid my suspension every year for the three years we ran the Fiero in Chumpcar (2013 - 2015). 

 

Freeze the rules and no new cars on the VPI list for three years; fix the problems that already exist before making new ones.

Edited by mender
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53 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The ruleset needs to be both proactive and reactive.   

 

If the rule set was fixed you would get extremely perverse results as people take advantage of the open ruleset which is far from perfect.  

 

I do however think any rule change needs to be in 100% alignment with the vision and mission of ChampCar.  Every decision should be a progression towards the vision.

 

But the changes in the rules create the issues.  
 

That’s also why I added the emergency change in there.  If something comes up halfway through a year that’s clearly against the mission, it can still get changed.  

I also think there should be a member vote on which rules get changed.  BOD comes back with their top 10 options and the members vote on the top 2 or 3.   

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11 hours ago, petawawarace said:

But the changes in the rules create the issues.  
 

That’s also why I added the emergency change in there.  If something comes up halfway through a year that’s clearly against the mission, it can still get changed.  

I also think there should be a member vote on which rules get changed.  BOD comes back with their top 10 options and the members vote on the top 2 or 3.   

You should see some pictures of the early cars before the 60% rule.    Without changes in the last couple years you'd see cars with multiple wings which extend out 5-10" beyond the OE body line, way more multi-disk clutches, more cars missing chunks of frames, and I suspect you'd be seeing a lot more C3 corvettes putting down massive power.   I also think there was atleast one J-swapped miata before, ballooned fuel tanks.  

The rules get made by CCES, then pushed by competitors, then they need to be adjusted to keep the series on the rails.   

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My only complaint with how the rules have progressed involve the free / cheap values that were handed out through the last tech persons tenure.

 

Stuff got WAY less points than it had in the past.  

 

Before Jay was head tech, there was a fight to get parts and pieces and modifications done to the cars for a decent value. 

 

Phil had a philosophy that if It was something changed on the car that It should have a value.  I have logbooks that show points for redrilling strut towers and mesh to protect the radiator.....

 

  It led to slower speeds and more ingenuity imho.

 

I'm hoping we get back to that to some degree.  However, pretty sure that ship has sailed.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

My only complaint with how the rules have progressed involve the free / cheap values that were handed out through the last tech persons tenure.

 

Stuff got WAY less points than it had in the past.  

 

Before Jay was head tech, there was a fight to get parts and pieces and modifications done to the cars for a decent value. 

 

Phil had a philosophy that if It was something changed on the car that It should have a value.  I have logbooks that show points for redrilling strut towers and mesh to protect the radiator.....

 

  It led to slower speeds and more ingenuity imho.

 

I'm hoping we get back to that to some degree.  However, pretty sure that ship has sailed.

I have very few issues with the rules as they are written. 

I have much bigger issues with the way the rules were enforced or interpreted for certain teams and/or in certain situations. 

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If it was only two changes, what if those two changes effected your team only? Or those two changes hurt your rivals team and did not hurt you at all. The number of petitions and changes should not matter, it is the direction the rule changes are going is what matters. With allowing new cars the rules need to adapt to keep it fair for the older cars. If we do not allow newer cars then where does the series go as older cars become impossible to find, parts costly and people just finally give up on an old POS design to go for something newer that is more reliable.  

 

They have already said no banning of tires and no tire rules will be put in force. That is a pounding a dead horse at this point.

 

I do think mid year or whenever VPI adjustments up can have a much bigger effect on a team than a rule change so we need to be careful on that. 

 

I personally think rules need to change and evolve over time when needed. The issue I have seen is when the rule change is poorly written and thought out for all. A bunch of this hate is towards to the radiator rule that was put forth, realized was written very poorly and not thought threw well and withdrawn, but that left some with a bad taste, myself included. 

 

But heck, if you feel passionate about put it in a petition. Let TAC and Tech review it and make a recommendation, then the BOD will review it and see. Maybe they will fancy your idea and agree and say yes. If they say no, at least you tried to make the series better. If they say no, come on over to my ez up and we can wallow in our denied petitions together.

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I do agree that changes need to be made as things come up.  Its just baffling how often rules change in this series.  For anyone starting out it extremely frustrating.  

Some teams that can spend money and time to make the changes love it. But the other 90% of teams just want to race. 

 

Try and imagine for one minute that someone reads the 2018 rules and then reads the 2021 rules. How many changes in those 3 years? 

 

- Brakes are free

- shocks are now free

- wheels are now free

- Rad rule was changed 

- Rad rule was changed back

- All clutches are free

- Some clutches are free, some are 10pts and some are 50

- Carbs are 25pts less

- Diff rules changed

- adjustable shocks went from 75pts to 25pts

- Extra aero devices added to fixed pts list

- 2x rule eliminated

 

Thats just off the top of my head. And that doesn't include all of the tech desk rulings that changed things one way or another.

 

My point is, its literally impossible for someone to keep track of the changes unless they are active on here and Facebook. Its been said many times that is a small percentage of the membership. I know that several teams up here in Canada have switched to LD and other series and a main gripe is that they are fed up with the rules being a constant moving target. 

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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

I know that several teams up here in Canada have switched to LD and other series and a main gripe is that they are fed up with the rules being a constant moving target. 

I think that change is inherent in this type of rule set but when you look at how many different makes, models and generations are in the top 10 at the end of the season, its mind-blowing how well the series works.   To my knowledge CCES is also the most successful.  

Bracket racing literally regulates competition out of their rules.  In my opinion its pseudo-racing.  PWR racing is more appealing, but they don't seem to go to as many fun tracks and now they are moving up market.  

I would agree that this is an issue:
- Brakes are free

- shocks are now free

- wheels are now free

- Rad rule was changed 

- Rad rule was changed back

- All clutches are free

- Some clutches are free, some are 10pts and some are 50

- Carbs are 25pts less

- Diff rules changed

- adjustable shocks went from 75pts to 25pts

- Extra aero devices added to fixed pts list

- 2x rule eliminated

I can't seem to help myself to take advantage of every opportunity and if there were less opportunities I would have more time and money, so I am all about reeling in the rules.

Now I am off to figure out how to get GM carbon rotors on my miata.

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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

I do agree that changes need to be made as things come up.  Its just baffling how often rules change in this series.  For anyone starting out it extremely frustrating.  

Some teams that can spend money and time to make the changes love it. But the other 90% of teams just want to race. 

 

Try and imagine for one minute that someone reads the 2018 rules and then reads the 2021 rules. How many changes in those 3 years? 

 

- Brakes are free

- shocks are now free

- wheels are now free

- Rad rule was changed 

- Rad rule was changed back

- All clutches are free

- Some clutches are free, some are 10pts and some are 50

- Carbs are 25pts less

- Diff rules changed

- adjustable shocks went from 75pts to 25pts

- Extra aero devices added to fixed pts list

- 2x rule eliminated

 

Thats just off the top of my head. And that doesn't include all of the tech desk rulings that changed things one way or another.

 

My point is, its literally impossible for someone to keep track of the changes unless they are active on here and Facebook. Its been said many times that is a small percentage of the membership. I know that several teams up here in Canada have switched to LD and other series and a main gripe is that they are fed up with the rules being a constant moving target. 

BTW- from someone who has been a rule junky for a while let me say this.

brakes are free- they always were with the 2x rule

shocks are free- they always were with the 2x rule

wheels are free- they always have with the 2x rule on stock wheels

Rad rule-  Yes, that was a total dibacle, alum 10 points so the same now, but should be zero in my opinion

Clutches are free- they always have been.  The rule change makes the tiny ones costly, yes I had one and will miss it.

flywheels were free- now alum lightweight ones are 10 points

carbs are 25- they went down, but let us be realistic,  carbs are junk compared to FI and should be negative points if you choose one

diff rules change- did they? who knows with the e30 exceptions, nothing really changed

adj shocks went from 75 to 25- this does not really matter because anyone who has 4 of them has 100 points and will be ec. nothing really changed

aero- air dam added when it was with a splitter before. OK, 10 points if you make the front a big air dam. Should it be, yes, it helps.

2x rule was as stated above and no relevant anymore and needed to go

Another rule was headers on swaps went from zero to 25 points, I had to pay it and put my up 3 laps, caused me to go to EC and now I dismantled that car, partly due to not wanting to run EC. New car coming so it helped me in the end.

 

My point here is the rules changed, yes, but not really, we are all racing the same basic cars with the same basic speed. The higher hp,  larger fuel tank cars and people who run sticky tires with tons of money to spend on them still have the advantage just like they did before. We can all go racing like we have and battle and enjoy ourselves.

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4 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

BTW- from someone who has been a rule junky for a while let me say this.

brakes are free- they always were with the 2x rule

shocks are free- they always were with the 2x rule

wheels are free- they always have with the 2x rule on stock wheels

Rad rule-  Yes, that was a total dibacle, alum 10 points so the same now, but should be zero in my opinion

Clutches are free- they always have been.  The rule change makes the tiny ones costly, yes I had one and will miss it.

flywheels were free- now alum lightweight ones are 10 points

carbs are 25- they went down, but let us be realistic,  carbs are junk compared to FI and should be negative points if you choose one

diff rules change- did they? who knows with the e30 exceptions, nothing really changed

adj shocks went from 75 to 25- this does not really matter because anyone who has 4 of them has 100 points and will be ec. nothing really changed

aero- air dam added when it was with a splitter before. OK, 10 points if you make the front a big air dam. Should it be, yes, it helps.

2x rule was as stated above and no relevant anymore and needed to go

Another rule was headers on swaps went from zero to 25 points, I had to pay it and put my up 3 laps, caused me to go to EC and now I dismantled that car, partly due to not wanting to run EC. New car coming so it helped me in the end.

 

My point here is the rules changed, yes, but not really, we are all racing the same basic cars with the same basic speed. The higher hp,  larger fuel tank cars and people who run sticky tires with tons of money to spend on them still have the advantage just like they did before. We can all go racing like we have and battle and enjoy ourselves.

Wow, this is the most agreeable post I've seen from @MR2 Biohazard

Well said, and thank you for pointing this out.

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